Session 3.03 - Creative Challenges

Perhaps we can have our spiders eat their dead, like the acromantulas from Harry Potter? The acromantula can grow up to the size of an elephant and can talk, but are highly aggressive.
 
I agree on the huntsman spiders having the behaviour we're looking for, or at least very close to it. Just add some cannibalism, as you say.
 
It has been requested that we map out the Angband storyline episode by episode like the Frame (though they are allowed to be absent from some episodes if needed).

That will be important for coordinating some of the Noldor-Beleriand-Angband events.
 
And thanks very much to Richol for her awesome note-taking during the session! Here is the part that dealt with the three questions in this thread.

Richol Richards said:
My audio towards the end got rather patchy, so I may have missed a couple of points, but here's what I got:

Menegroth

-More aesthetic reasoning vs military

- Elves can do more with light (fully lit home vs. surrounding darkness)



Helceraxe

Q: Does Morgoth attack at all?


Noldor’s resistance to conditions:

Q: How do we convey without downplaying the harsh cold of the Helceraxe?

- dialogue?

- diminished numbers (let the viewers come to the conclusion on their own)


*Elenwe dies via whirlpool

*Ulmo feeling guilty for his part in the Helceraxe; Tilion, Varda and other spirits involved in aiding the Noldor (Auroras)



Angband

Morgoth’s involvement:

- Fine with Gothmog/Sauron conflict, as long as they don’t overstep

- Gothmog more obedient, Sauron more intelligent

- Sauron sent on increasing missions


Q: How do we deal with Ungoliant?

- Feature in the voyage of Earendil (starving, plotting to ensnare the moon, etc)

- Sauron (sent by Morgoth) only finds her offspring


Sauron’s alliance with Shelob:

- Shelob is just a spider, no human form but able to talk (telepathic?)

- Shelob not clever or eloquent. Short speech. More of a free agent

- Sauron’s allegiance with spiders part of plan to invade Doriath so he positions them in Nan Dungortheb (gathers them from various places)


Orc Project

- Sauron’s psychological regimen

- Morgoth takes over, pours anger and aggression into project, alters them

- Boldog, leader of the orcs, big ending (killed by Glamdring)

- Orc spirit dispersed in reproductive ability (need for many)


* Boldog randomly pulled from the ranks, becomes head of the orcs (after Sauron declines)

- Kills Denethor, slaughters Green Elves, first major success as orc leader

- Kills Barahir & co.

- pawn in Saruon-Gothmog rivalry



Homework: Make list of things we need to portray, incorporate into definitive episode outline
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I'm having a bit of a problem with the execs proposal to have Sauron find spiders scattered across Beleriand and gathering them in Nan Dungortheb for an attack against Doriath. One concern is that Tolkien specifically wrote that Ungoliant went to that valley, where she found spiders, and mated with them there, which turned the valley into a nightmarish place. If spiders were found all across Beleriand, it presents us (and Sauron) with some problems. Mainly, it's about boring logistics. How does he transport the spiders from all of those different places to Nan D? And how does he find all of them? There won't be any spiders left in other places. The smaller spiders are not very clever, so how does he communicate with them if he wants them to move to Nan D? Does Thuringwethil and some other bats pick them up in their claws and carry them there flying? That would look silly. Maybe they make huge bags out of webs and take a dozen of the creatures each tour.
No I would very very much prefer if there was one big group of spiders found in Nan Dungortheb, or close by, maybe spread across the Ered Gorgoroth, and Sauron just made them focus and concentrate in the valley. So we'd just have smaller movements, and Shelob and perhaps a few other bigger spiders could herd their children and followers to the area in preparation of an attack (or whatever the plan is).
 
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Ok finally listening now that it's up as a podcast.

Initial thought.

Consider the Trees. A combination of light and plants. A joint creation of Varda and Yavanna.

Now consider the aurora newly appearing over the Helcaraxe as a sign to the Noldor. A combination of light and dancing. A joint creation of Varda and Nessa?
 
Cattle and horses both seem like Elvish livestock to me. But they definitely lose all their animals in crossing the ice. They may have to eat them. Some dogs might survive. But most of their goods, horses, and livestock were carried away on the ships... leaving them even less prepared for the Helkaraxe. The horses they have later in Beleriand were given (or given back) by Maedhros.

It may be hard to show the misery of cold and hunger on the ice, but you can still show the dramatic moments when ice breaks underfoot and they fall into sub-freezing seawater that slaps them against the jagget bits of ice. Or a hill of ice falls from above. Or they fall into a crevasse that was disguised by a fluff of snow in it.

I vote for the Helkaraxe being arctic, with no land underneath. That way Elenwë and Idril can be pitched right into the water to drown, with Turgon diving in again and again, even while he’s almost dying of hypothermia, desperate to find them. By the time he finally gives up, or is restrained from diving back in, he's shaking so hard from cold that he clearly can't swim anymore. And that comes long after the point when a human would have died, but it's surprising that an elf can even be reduced to that.

EDIT: I'll add that the Helkaraxe is in the north and is described by JRRT as being formed from water and cold air, with no indication of land underneath. Both of those, and the description of Turgon diving into the cold water to rescue Idril, point strongly to arctic sea ice, not an antarctic sub-continent. And if Ulmo is partly responsible for it being there, then he couldn't have put land underneath.

I don’t think it has much wildlife. It is not a natural land bridge, but a place where the pack-ice is more dreadful than would be natural, due to Morgoth’s malice. Seals and walruses and polar bears, but not killer penguins, nor tundra land animals like muskoxen or ptarmigan.

I thought the Noldor had some lembas with them to start with, but maybe not. It should be clear that Noldor can starve and freeze to death, but if you emphasize that as the main or only cause of death, audiences will ask (rightly) how Maedhros survived then.



Tilion: I feel like Tilion gets some negative characterization in Tolkien’s writing. He’s the wayward one who doesn’t follow the schedule the Valar gave him, causes eclipses, and depending on the interpretation could be responsible for the sun burning those dark spots into the moon (during eclipses). The Hobbits sing ridiculous songs about him getting drunk, falling in the ocean, and just being a lout. If he was really that bad, Varda would have replaced him with somebody more responsible. We should restore some dignity to the poor fellow!
 
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in the Session Prof. Olsen suggested that ungolianth mated with Animal spiders... I don#t really see how that could werk! There were no giant spiders there back then... they only came into being by being Ungolianths lesser descendants. Ahd Ungolianth would't have mates with small Spiders of even Tarantula size... can#t see how that works so there must have been other Maiar in Spider form, spirits akin to hers.
 
Umaiar could work.

Or things of unspecified origin. Not everything is a clearly identified race -- there are creatures like Tom Bombadil, Goldberry, and the "nameless things" that gnaw the earth deep beneath the Misty Mountains.

Maybe her mates were some of the nameless gnawing things, and she chased the survivors underground by just being terrifying and eating them. They are evidently something quite horrible -- Gandalf is eventually persuaded to describe the Balrog that killed him, but refuses to speak about the nameless gnawing things.

Or just don't discuss or mention her having mates. She's female, the audience can be allowed to wonder if she reproduced parthenogenically.
 
Or Melkor forces some of his demons to take spider form to fight or lure her but instead she eats them and gets impregnated from that... hell i don#t know. Ungolianth is weird. We don't know how she works. Maybe it would be best not to explain too much if we aren't sure by ourselves..
 
The execs decided she is one of the , lesser than the valar but mightier than the maiar. The execs also have decides that bombadil is an ainu, not attached to any of the valar.
 
Faelivrin said:
Have the execs decided to specify what she is?
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They have specified that she is an Ainu. As to there not being any giant spiders she can breed with, I'm not sure why we need to state that. Melkor bred an army of monsters in S01, and there is no reason giant spiders couldn't be amongst them.
 
Yes since Sauron will encounter her offspring after she's gone south and just talk to Shelob who isn't the most verbal being in Middle-earth, we will be able to leave it a mystery.
 
amysrevenge said:
Yes. She plays a good role in S1. You should check out the scripts. She has a nifty little B plot.
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I would like to read the scripts and the plans where strange things like "Elwing's death" (!!!) were decided, but have no idea where to find them. Help please?
 
I don't remember anything about Elwing's death being decided (the closest thing I can think of being her near-death when she dives into the sea being depicted on a vase, which has since been replaced with something else).

However, I think amysrevenge is referring to the Script outlines which can be found in the "Scripts" page of this forum. As to where the discussions revolving around these outlines can be found, one can go here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdlP0kk22eTXhMhXTsp_aFw?view_as=subscriber
 
If I don't have a YouTube account, can I comment on them in the Scripts forum or the Episodes forum?

Also, I see a lot of references to Podcasts. Where do I find them?
 
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