Session 3.03 - Creative Challenges
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
the Quail? I'm not sure---common Quails do not live in northern britain and only in some parts of southern Skandinavia. So i'm inclined to think that Forochel is too far north for Quail to appear as a reliable source of food. If my understanding of Tolkiens maps is right I suggest the helcaraxe to lie north of the 60° longitude while Dolmed probably is close to the 52°.
I see now i#ve misread your suggestion Mithluin
Haha, yes, no quail in the arctic! IF we were to have a flock of birds (something like ptarmigan) suddenly appear and the Noldor to react with, 'oh look, food!' that would be a direct reference to the quail showing up in the camps of the Israelites in their (far less northerly) desert. And I'm thinking...no...we don't want to do that. So...we're on the same page there, I think.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Another suggestion: What about ungolianths male partners? She obviously had ar last one partner she devoured... But who was he( or they? If there was more than one?) maiar in spiderform i guess, no natural giant spiders.., but where do these male spiderdemons come from? I wonder if morgoth had his hands in that...
I think we can decide her size as we wish.
Naturally Shelob is much smaller but Sauron won't know exactly how big Ungoliant is. It's not like Morgoth will tell him her hat size or anything.
I don't think it's necessary that Sauron thinks Shelob is Ungoliant. He's not stupid. I think it's important though that he doesn't know if Ungoliant is there or not and he doesn't know what to expect.
Marielle
Well-Known Member
While this is not particularly a topic I wish to dwell overmuch on, is it necessary that her partners be in giant spider form? Did we decide she can't resume her other form, or take a new one?
According to the texts I can find, she flees from the Balrogs to Ered Gorgoroth/Nan Dungortheb where she finds spider formed creatures which she breeds with. So it seems that, regardless of what shape she has herself, her mates are spiders.
Marielle
Well-Known Member
Okay. Good to know. Still, I think that might be the thing we least want to show on-screen. I'm not sure her partners even need be shown, I think people will get the idea when they see Shelob and her siblings.
How are they, by the way? Do they live together in more or less harmony, like a band of brigands? Or do they each have their turf, and will slaughter anyone who crosses into it, sibling or not?
I don't know much about spiders.... but I'm not sure how much we need to describe and show.
- And I agree that we do not have to linger on scenes showing Ungoliant mating. Let's not.
- But now that I think about it, regarding whether she's still around or not: If not too much time has passed between the thieves' quarrel and Sauron coming to Nan Dungortheb, it seems unlikely that Ungoliant has left. Instead, she should have been making baby spiders for just a short while.
But maybe she's eaten her male partners already, or is just finishing them off when Sauron finds her. Having eaten them and lain a bunch of eggs, she might be inclined to move on. She could leave the eggs with Sauron, who can become Shelob's foster daddy.
Alcarohtar
Active Member
Don't want another Melisandre giving birth to monsters.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
So, when I think of these spiders, or those of Mirkwood, I think of this...
WARNING: Not for those squeamish of spiders!
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
Morgoth creates//subverts/perverts/etc a series of male giant spiders. How better to catch a spider than with another spider? Ungoliant defeats, mates with, and devours each in succession.
How about that?
How about that?
No stingers.
Tolkien actually never mentioned or described "stingers." He refers to a spider's bite as a sting.
No real-life spiders have stingers; those would be scorpions.
Here is the description of Shelob:
And here is where he uses the word "sting" in reference to the spider's bite:
More telling is Tolkien's description of the real-life tarantula that bit him when he was a child:
Peter Jackson included a stinger on Shelob in his films, most likely to make the fight scenes more interesting - in other words, it gave Shelob a reason to try to come down on Sam from above, so the threat was magnified. The front end of the spider with the jaws was already scary, but the back end [which in the book was just massive and noxious] maybe appeared less threatening on film and it would have been difficult to convey the danger of what would happen if the belly squashed him. It also gave the opportunity to portray Shelob *above* Frodo, rather than simply running up behind him as in the book.
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We will want to set up a situation that engages the forces of both Angband and the Sindar - and we want to do it quickly, to set things in motion (the Girdle of Melian, Sauron's activities to oppose Melian).
We have two options as I see it: either 1) the situation starts with the spiders, or 2) Sauron is sent to the area to counter the Girdle of Melian, and finds the spiders as a bonus. I find the second alternative a little less satisfying, since it doesn't really show the reason for setting up the Girdle. (Well, I guess the return of Melkor could be seen as reason enough, but I think we will want a more specific reason.) If (1) Sauron is sent to the dreadful valley because, say, Thuringwethil says she has seen a lot of spiders there, he will go to investigate, although he perhaps doesn't know what he will find. We can show in parallel how the Sindar are troubled by the spiders as well and Melian, fearing Ungoliant (whether she knows who U is or not), sets up the Girdle as protection.
I still think that Ungoliant should still be there when Sauron arrives (she won't have had time to breed and leave yet), and she'll leave him with her eggs and kids. In that case, Shelob will be a smaller (well...) spider, and grow up as the seasons go.
We have two options as I see it: either 1) the situation starts with the spiders, or 2) Sauron is sent to the area to counter the Girdle of Melian, and finds the spiders as a bonus. I find the second alternative a little less satisfying, since it doesn't really show the reason for setting up the Girdle. (Well, I guess the return of Melkor could be seen as reason enough, but I think we will want a more specific reason.) If (1) Sauron is sent to the dreadful valley because, say, Thuringwethil says she has seen a lot of spiders there, he will go to investigate, although he perhaps doesn't know what he will find. We can show in parallel how the Sindar are troubled by the spiders as well and Melian, fearing Ungoliant (whether she knows who U is or not), sets up the Girdle as protection.
I still think that Ungoliant should still be there when Sauron arrives (she won't have had time to breed and leave yet), and she'll leave him with her eggs and kids. In that case, Shelob will be a smaller (well...) spider, and grow up as the seasons go.
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Uh...thanks for that.
I'll see that happy communal rainforest spider nest and raise you the Australian huntsmen spiders:
Yeah, we already hammered out what physical traits we wanted Ungoliant to have.
Nick's video (and mine) discuss the behaviors of communal spiders.
Some points of comparison.....
The rainforest spiders make a massive web nest where the spiders and their young live, more or less cooperatively. They are mostly (90%) female, and they tend the eggs and repair the nest as needed. They hunt by having streamers of sticky webbing that catch flying insects.
The huntsmen spiders are family communities. One adult female is the leader. As the young grow, the females can leave and start their own, or fight off their sisters for control. There is still communal assistance in caring for the young, and also very few adult males.
Both types of spiders are safe for humans to handle, and not particularly aggressive for spiders. But the way the huntsman spider lifestyle was described sounded more in line with what we would expect from Ungoliant's offspring, so I was including that video as kinda a supplemental idea.
Basically, I think the spiders should be willing to work together against outsiders/enemies, but we shouldn't shy away from cannibalistic tendencies among them, either. It's not a perfect harmony situation.
Nick's video (and mine) discuss the behaviors of communal spiders.
Some points of comparison.....
The rainforest spiders make a massive web nest where the spiders and their young live, more or less cooperatively. They are mostly (90%) female, and they tend the eggs and repair the nest as needed. They hunt by having streamers of sticky webbing that catch flying insects.
The huntsmen spiders are family communities. One adult female is the leader. As the young grow, the females can leave and start their own, or fight off their sisters for control. There is still communal assistance in caring for the young, and also very few adult males.
Both types of spiders are safe for humans to handle, and not particularly aggressive for spiders. But the way the huntsman spider lifestyle was described sounded more in line with what we would expect from Ungoliant's offspring, so I was including that video as kinda a supplemental idea.
Basically, I think the spiders should be willing to work together against outsiders/enemies, but we shouldn't shy away from cannibalistic tendencies among them, either. It's not a perfect harmony situation.
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