Session 3.08 - S3 Ep3: Meanwhile in Beleriand

Discussion in 'Episode Questions' started by MithLuin, Sep 15, 2017.

  1. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Well-Known Member

    I think it is very important not to change the order things happened -- nearly as important as not leaving out one of the Five Battles or inventing a Sixth Battle.
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  2. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

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  3. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    In my outline I have Eöl's arch looking something like this: 1. Wants to live in Nan Elmoth, but Thingol says no. 2. Meets Dwarves and learns smithing. 3. Creates Anglachel and buys the right to live in Nan Elmoth. This is a shorter arch but I think it matches his importance.
  4. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    Ok, just as a heads up. This is the state of my outline right now. Please give me feedback so I can finish this until next thursday.
    I've already had lots of help in creating this outline, especially from Haerangil, Faelivrin, MithLuin and Brian Dimmick (and I probably missed mentioning people, sorry! Well let's say it's everyone involved in this thread...), and I based it on the outline Alcarohtar made, so it's not just my thing.

    Season 3 timeline, which is at least in part an attempt to show that it's possible to put the First Battle of Beleriand before the Second Battle of Beleriand (focusing primarily on the Beleriand storyline and some of the Noldor storyline – not a lot of Valar and no frame, which makes some episodes seem short and lacking of story):

    Episode 3: Of the Sindar

    1. Storm of Uinen.

    2. We see Círdan, see the life of the Falathrim, their settlements, ships etc. This is long before the Kinslaying and certainly long before Círdan hears about the crime. He has completed a new large ship. A visiting Sindar - could be someone unnamed - is impressed and says he'll make sure to tell King Thingol about it. 'Yes, tell Elwë', Círdan says, implying he doesn’t put much worth in titles (but also informing us about the name change).

    3. We go to Thingol and Melian, and their court, engaged in a movable feast, a hunting festival to honor Oromë. They arrive in Nan Elmoth, partly because Lúthien, their daughter, wants to visit the place of her parents’ love trance. She dances under the stars and Daeron, a new face to the viewers, sings. Beleg is there as well, and Mablung.

    4.Eöl arrives, crashes the party, along with a couple of servants. He says he’s found a home in Nan Elmoth, and that they are disturbing him. Thingol doesn’t approve. He says that fine, Eöl can stay there, but it’s within Thingol’s and Melian’s domain, and they won’t restrict their movements. Eöl stomps off as usual.

    5. Melian councels Thingol: He is king of the Sindar, but there are lands beyond the Ered Luin where others live. Thingol recalls the Avari and the Nandor. Melian says that others have come to Beleriand. Thingol sends Beleg and Mablung to find what these others are. Beleg goes northwest and Mablung southeast.

    6. Eöl meets Mîm– at first, he has his servants hold the petty-dwarf down, but he soon realises that he’s harmless and releases him. Eöl wants to know who Mîm is and the petty-dwarf says he has come from east of the Blue Mountains where there are more of his kind but they are different. Mîm learns (or has already understood) that Eöl has a grudge against Thingol. Mîm says he himself tries to avoid the elves and keep a low profile, and he has found a place to live that the Sindar king doesn’t know about. He recommends Eöl to do the same.

    7.We see Dwarves making their way along the mountainside (these are the Nogrod Dwarves - Firebeards?, but that doesn't have to be clear to the viewers at this point). At some point, they halt and seem to listen to the rock wall. They make laughing noises while setting up camp. Later, we hear cracking sounds, and the rock breaks. A tunnel opening is created in the mountainside, and out comes more Dwarves. These are the Belegost Dwarves (Broadbeams?). They are welcomed by the waiting Dwarves. Together they look at Beleriand. Some distance eastward downhill, they see an elf (Mablung). He is looking right at them (they have been making quite a lot of noise). The Nogrod Dwarves hide (or at least retreat), but the Belegost Dwarves keep eye contact with the elf and a couple of them (including Azaghâl? No he’s probably not born yet) make a move towards Mablung, who also walks up to meet the strangers. (Well, maybe Mablung isn’t alone.)

    8. Beleg is in the woods close to Eithel Sirion and notices a fire some distance away. He moves closer. As he comes closer, he sees that someone has set fire to a tree on the lower slopes of the mountains (Ered Wethrin). By the light if the burning tree, a couple of beings are squatting with the back to him, hunched over a large, dead animal. With long, thin black hair and pointy ears, they can be mistaken for elves for a second or two. Beleg calls out to them, and one of them turns around and by doing so, he/she shows that he/she has his/her face covered in blood. The same goes for the other being. They've been eating directly from the belly of the animal. Beleg is appalled. The two beings are scared by him and run away screaming with hideous voices. The scene ends with Beleg doing something with the animal as a sign of respect. Or maybe he does something about the burning tree. (Beleg could have company - maybe Annael, later to be Tuor's foster father?)

    E4: Gonnhirrim

    Melian councels Thingol that the peace of Middle-earth won’t last forever. He wants to build himself a kingly stronghold. (This is during the second age of Melkor’s imprisonment)

    This leads to the suggestion that the elves should move underground. Who finds Menegroth and suggests that the Sindar should move there? (Sindar, dwarves, Eöl? Eöl would probably be too complicated, although he could have told the Dwarves about Mîm and his caves and then the Dwarves could suggest those caves when talking to Thingol). Thingol is fascinated about the gonnhirrim. All Sindar are puzzled by the dwarves, and Luthien asks her father if it's wise to follow the ways of a culture you don't understand. In the end her concerns are interpreted as a wish to keep dancing under the stars.

    Sindar talk to Círdan who agrees to give Thingol pearls to pay the Dwarves. The Falathrim have a lot of pearls, so that’s not a problem.

    Mîm is tossed out from his caves. The Sindar discover Petty-dwarves and believe they are the weird creatures Beleg saw up north. They shoot at them and one or two are killed by arrows. Beleg arrives and says that’s not the same kind. (Idea: Mîm complains to Thingol, who has to decide what to do about the petty-dwarf – and asks the Broadbeams for advice, which doesn’t result in making Mîm happy.) Btw the Dwarves love the pearls.

    More of Eöl and the dwarves of the Blue Mts. He learns secrets about smithing. (From Belegost or Nogrod? Does it matter?)

    The Dwarves encounter fell beasts (wolves, beings of shadow, proto orcs) on the eastern slopes of the mountains. They have to fight them. After this, wandering elves appear: Lindi led by Denethor arrive in Ossiriand, looking for a mighty king. They bring Ents, including Treebeard. Denethor's people have met dwarves before (Durin's people - the Longbeards?).

    E5: Menegroth

    Doriath: Dwarves of Belegost
    inform Thingol that there are fell beasts to the east of the mountains, and that the Sindar’s ancient kindred that dwell there are flying from the plains. Thingol and the Dwarves make an arms deal. (Telchar?) Interior decoration of Menegroth. A young Gamil Zirak at work? Dwarves are fascinated by Daeron's writing.

    Angband: Morgoth has returned and starts ruling through management by fear, letting his servants know that no one has a safe position. SSNOP details, orcs being prepped for release but Morgoth thinks the proto-orcs are a sad lot. Mairon loses his job, is sent to find out what happened to Ungoliant, and also to map the Sindar movements, where they live etc. Boldog is put in charge of the orc project. His position is under Gothmog who is put in charge of the army as operative general. Boldog's relation to Mairon is probably that he thinks Mairon is a loser and he himself a winner, but they won't have much contact at this stage. Mairon is filled with the desire to prove himself in Melkor’s eyes and hate against Gothmog. (By handling Mairon roughly, Morgoth actually provokes Mairon to step further towards a complete fall.)

    Thingol learns that elves have now entered Beleriand crossing the Blue Mts. He could be excited ("Is Lenwë among them?" - the dwarves won't know details).

    Mairon: His disappointment transfers to aggression towards his gang, and he sends them to look for elves and Ungoiliant.

    The Lindi meet the Sindar. (What has happened to Lenwë? What will the relationship between Thingol and Denethor be like? Is Thingol disappointed or does he dislike the newcomers? Is his reaction like Estel's when he comes to the Dúnedain camp? What about Threebeard?)

    Mairon and his people can’t find more than a few of the Sindar. He instructs his underlings to intensify their search while he shifts focus to his second task, finding Ungoliant. Angband:The orcs multiply. Morgoth pours his hate into them. Boldog is making soldiers of them, and is getting ready to release a huge army. Gothmog is onto him and threatens him – he must not fail.

    Rising of the Thangorodrim.

    Of the Noldor: There is tension between the fingolfinians and the feanorians - and even the friendship of Maedhros and Fingon is at a low point. Finarfin and his children debate - go on or return? We understand that not much time has passed since the Kinslaying. (The timelines are getting closer)

    E6: Strong and fell

    still doesn’t find the Sindar and neither does his gang. He learns about the Green elves though. Thuringwethil finds out that word is spread among the elves of Beleriand that there is a hidden place in Doriath where elves can find refuge.
    Sauron searches for the hidden place and north of Doriath he finds a lot of spiders and Shelob. He learns that Ungoliant has left Beleriand. He returns to Morgoth with this news and also tells his lord about the Green elves and the disappearance of most of the Sindar. Morgoth decides to wipe out the green elves and the Falathrim.
    Boldog and Sauron bring a larger host of orcs out of Angband and pass silently into the highlands of the north. They initially encounter just a few Sindar, who are killed.

    Thingol is given the sword Aranrúth by the dwarves (or is it elven made?).

    E7: Doom

    brings the sword Anglachel to Thingol and buys the right to live in Nan Elmoth. He goes there and hides. Thingol puts the black sword away - he already has Aranrúth.

    The orc army under Boldog comes south moving suddenly down past Estolad, while another army under Sauron is sent out into the western parts of Beleriand. We see Thingol and Círdan hurry to prepair defensive action. Thingol coordinates movements with the Dwarvesto meet the enemy. Círdan also summons his people to meet the western Angband army but we get a bad feeling about their chances. (Denethor? Wants to be a hero? Keeps a low profile? Thingol doesn't want him in a battle? They don't have time to plan his part in this?)

    The curse of Mandos. Finarfin turns back, saying goodbye to his children (all??). (Amarië says goodbye to Finrod? - Or did that already happen?) Fëanor leaves with the ships.

    E8: The First Battle

    While Melian sets up the girdle (which could take some time, like even more than one episode?), Thingol and the dwarves fight a part of the eastern orc army and set out to help the Lindi - the major part of the orc army is heading their way. (So, Thingol and the Dwarves are delayed north of Amon Ereb)

    The green elves are slaughtered on Amon Ereb, Denethor dies (killed by Boldog).(What about the Ents? They could hold off the orcs until the dwarves and Sindar arrive? But some Ents must die, although they prove formidable in battle. This means they can't be too many.) The Sindar and the dwarves arrive to the battle.

    The Falathrim meet the orcs led by Sauron, and the elves are forced to retreat.

    The orcs led by Boldog are defeated but both Thingol and the Green elves have suffered heavy losses and they have to leave the battlefield. Beleg or Mablung wounded? Boldog manages to escape with some orcs - they go west.

    Green Elves vow to never take a new leader. Thingol prepares for hard times. Some green Elves settle in Doriath as guests of king Thingol (Guest-Elves, Saeros is one of them). (Maybe the Girdle is fully established after this?) Others retreat to Ossiriand. (Treebeard?)

    E9: The Ships

    intensifies the attacks on the Havens. He is joined by Boldog and the defeated orc army coming from the First Battle (a bit of a loser but he has killed Denethor at least). They force the Falathrim to retreat into their settlements. The orc army press on and starts to attack the homes of the elves.

    (At this point, things look really bad for the Sindar, even if they did were victorious in the first battle - one more of those victories and they're finished; they have to pull back and even hide)

    Burning of ships (may take some time depending on whether we kill a twin or not). Will Maedhros try to save dying twin?

    Fingolfin sees the burning ships in a vision (Maedhros?). Understands what has happened. Decides to move on.

    Gothmog is watching the fires from the burning. Fëanor travels into Hithlum and sets up a camp by the shores of lake Mithrim.

    Victory of Fëanor (Dagor-nuin-Giliath): Gothmog sends his orcs down to attack the noldor. The orcs are slaughtered and Gothmog is humiliated.

    Helcaraxë – the first steps.


    troops force the northern orc army to retreat. Still, the feeling among the Noldor can be mixed since they might have lost Amrod. There is also the issue of Fëanor losing his mental balance.

    In the South, Sauron has forced the Falathrim to abandon their cities. They escape on ships and boats. Círdan manages to send a message to Thingol asking for aid. (Thingol doesn't have enough people to send aid.)

    Morgoth orders Sauron to leave the south to help at the northern front.

    Helcaraxë: Running out of food, animals dying.

    E11:(in which there are signs of Valar intervening, which makes the Sun&Moon come with less of a surprise and not out of nowhere)

    is killed but the Noldor cause significant damage to the northern orc army.

    Sauron does not engage in combat with the Noldor but avoids them and passes close to Doriath. He senses the power of Melian and her girdle close by. ('Something is happening here'). He establishes counter-magic in the valley north of Doriath with the help of Shelob and her kin.

    Meanwhile: Círdan dreams of Ulmo (or maybe a fog rolls in, covering the ships of the Falathrim, and he hears the Ulumori) and since the pressure from the siege isn't quite as relentless when Sauron isn't around, The Falathrim manages to send guerilla units upstream behind the enemy lines (helped by fog?)

    Helcaraxë: Light of the Auroras give some hope.

    sends people to aid the Falathrim.Maybe dwarves also come?
    Sauron plans false treaty and sends out emissaries. Here we must have a scene showing Sauron convincing Gothmog to go along with his plan – or Morgoth makes him go along with it. One of Sauron’s emissaries finds Beleg who is given a message which he delivers to Thingol.

    Maedhros decides to come to a parley.

    (The creation of the Sun and the Moon?)
    Helcaraxë: The Whirlpool. Death of Elenwë. Idril saved, close call.


    (War in the south in a deadlock?)
    Parley trap. The balrogs under Gothmog capture Maedhros (does anyone else go with him and escape, I mean another brother?); Sauron sends messengers to barter for Maedhros' (who is chained up on a mountain) release with the Fëanoreans, who refuse. The arrival of Fingolfin's host and the rising of the sun - Angband in turmoil. The sun shines on Maedhros hanging on the cliff side. Thingol learns that Fingolfin has arrived with a huge host. The orcs besieging the Falathrim scatter in fear? (Boldog?)
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  5. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Well-Known Member

    Haakon I like that!

    Very hard to quote on my phone so no q tags:

    Episode 3: Of the Sindar
    "Beleg is appalled. The two beings are scared by him and run away."

    They should cry out so their hideous voices can be heard.

    E4: Gonnhirrim
    "Who finds Menegroth and suggests that the Sindar should move there? (Sindar, dwarves, Eöl?). "

    I think Dwarves.

    E6: Strong and fell
    "Sauron searches for the hidden place and north of Doriath he finds Shelob. He learns that Ungoliant has left Beleriand."

    I think he should meet multiple Children of Ungoliante so it's apparent the whole Vale is infested with them. And some are bigger and nastier than Shelob.

    E9: The Ships

    "Helcaraxë – the first steps."

    This shouldn't start until Ep. 11 at the earliest. Fingolfin's host spent only 1 Valian year on the Ice, not 3. The previous 2 years they spent wandering miserably in northern Araman looking for other ways to cross.

    "Still, the feeling among the Noldor can be mixed since they might have lostAmras (or is itAmrod?).There is also the issue of Fëanor losing his mental balance."

    Amrod is the one who dies. And Feanor's insane reaction is to basically say "whatever".
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  6. Haerangil

    Haerangil Well-Known Member

    Great! But one thing: i don't think azaghal can already be there... I believe it doesn't work with the timeline. A young gamil could be involved i suppose. But i guess we will create some dwarf- stand ins anyway as lesser support characters.
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  7. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    Great! I’ll include your ideas and make some changes. I will do that in the above post, because I’ve run into some irritating problems each time I paste a word document into a post here, like spaces between words disappearing and the whole of the text being underscored. I won’t have time to do that again so I’ll refer to the post above as the last outline, but will be doing changes during the week.
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  8. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    I was thinking this is just seeing them starting to walk, the very first steps. Also, consider what happens in Middle-earth at the same time... I think what I’m trying to convey here is a feeling that the crossing will take time, and that it takes time, and giving that just three episodes including a starter episode and an arrival episode won’t give that feeling. I’m not sure this results in it taking three valian years.
  9. Haerangil

    Haerangil Well-Known Member

    Tolkiens timelines have severe weaknesses when it comes to the helcaraxe and the stolen ships of alqualonde... I don't know if he had noticed it himself. I guess we don't have to stick to it if we feel it doesn't look realistic. We are compressong events all the time... We knew we'd have to to this for a tv adaption right from the start
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
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  10. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    Also, there’s the issue of Fingolfin seeing the fire from the burning ships at Losgar. That’s something we have to find a solution to, omit or change. I mean the elves have good eyesight but it’s a huge distance there.
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  11. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I am not remotely comfortable with the fire in Losgar being seen in Araman. Because, seriously, if it's *that* close, then the Helcaraxe is suddenly a very short distance to walk across. I think we can convey the news to Fingolfin that Fëanor has burnt the ships in some other way. I am comfortable with Fingolfin having a dream/vision of the burning ships rather than seeing them with his waking eyes.

    Or perhaps it could be something Fingolfin doesn't quite know? I mean, the ships just vanish when the Fëanoreans leave without talking to the Host of Fingolfin. There can be a lot of speculation as to what that means. Was the intent to abandon them or return for them as a ferry? Were they lost at Sea? How long should the host of Fingolfin linger on the shore waiting for them to return, and what is the impetus to say, screw that, we're not waiting any longer, we're going to make our own way to Middle Earth without ships?
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  12. Haerangil

    Haerangil Well-Known Member

    Dream or vision would be my favourite solution!
  13. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    Maybe we can involve Maedhros in some way?
  14. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Do you remember when Faramir has a 'vision' of Boromir's dead body in the river?'s almost definitely his actual funeral boat?

    We could play with that idea...where it seems like an actual physical vision at first, but when it ends, we just have Fingolfin standing on a dark shore, no fires in sight.

    And of course when we get to that point, we can discuss whether we want Fingolfin to have the vision or give it to someone else.
  15. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Well-Known Member

    One possibility is that one or more burning ships are blown out to sea and drift close enough to be seen while still on fire.

    I have two more comments that I didn't get to earlir:

    I don't think the Falathrim had cities at this point. I think their havens were much more rustic at first. The 1977 Silmarillion says the Noldor rebuilt Eglarest and Brithombar later as walled towns, and the implication seems to be that they were not such before. I'm thinking very simple, thatched buildings of wood, no more than 2 storeys, and no outer walls. Unpaved streets and roads. Nothing more really seemed necessary, and the Sindar just aren't great architects.

    I'm certain that during the Rebellion and Flight of the Noldor and in the time shortly before the Darkening of Valinor they had become estranged by the feud. Perhaps each thought the other guy had stopped being friends.

    OK, one more comment. What is SSNOP?
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
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  16. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    Hmm. Yes, that's creative. Still, I'm not sure it would solve things - How long does the fire last? Does the ship drift across the whole ocean, burning without sinking? No I think a vision is still a better option - or a dream.

    Another idea would be some kind of messenger. A bird - a seagull, a tern or an albatross. I don't know. Maybe that's just silly.

    I guess we should discuss some kind of Ainu intervention as well.
  17. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    Yes I think you're right! So that's why I've been leaning away from a siege and I think they're just pushed to the sea later. But I'll check on the first paragraph and write 'settlements' instead of cities.
    The Super Secret Necromantic Orc Project of course! :D
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  18. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Well-Known Member

    Have the SSNOP details been decided on? I think of Sauron as Necromancer being surrounded by enslaved lesser wraiths and corrupted/enslaved ghosts. While Morgoth prefers to ignore souls and just corrupt, mutilate, and torture bodies and minds, I think of Sauron as somebody who ... experimented with trying to directly manipulate and mutilate souls. Is that what you mean by Necromantic Orc Project?
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  19. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    Have you paid a visit to the thread Orcs? Also, the execs have talked about this on numerous occasions and just recently on one of the last pod sessions.

    The decision is something like this:

    Melkor and Mairon kidnaps elves. Melkor instructs Mairon to break them down and make use of them and when Melkor is taken away Mairon experiments on the captives and develops his necromantic skills while doing it. This is the SSNOP. Then Morgoth will turn these sad beings into vicious orcs, with the Maia Boldog as role model. (Very roughly sketched and probably not correct in every detail)

    So I guess the answer is yes, the decision is more or less what you describe.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
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  20. Ange1e4e5

    Ange1e4e5 Well-Known Member

    Like Ramsay in Game of Thrones turning Theon Greyjoy into Reek?

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