Session 3.16 - S3Ep11: The Making of the Sun and the Moon

[Marielle]

On an unrelated note, the idea of Tevildo being tasked with killing Melian is very amusing. I think Sauron must surely know that Melian is in Doriath -- it was hardly a secret, right? Maybe he just really underestimates how powerful Melian herself could be. To him, she might just be "the lady who spent time talking to birds in Lórien".

You're right, it's not in any way secret, but that doesn't mean it's common knowledge to those outside Thingol's kingdom. It's not like there's updates about the Doriath Royal Family on the nightly news, or anything. I tend to assume that Mairon et. al surely know someone closer to their league is in Doriath, but you're right he might just woefully underestimate her.

... Did we have her kill werewolves in Season 2? If so, and if we had survivors, Mairon definitely knows.

 

[NotACat]

You're right, it's not in any way secret, but that doesn't mean it's common knowledge to those outside Thingol's kingdom. It's not like there's updates about the Doriath Royal Family on the nightly news, or anything. I tend to assume that Mairon et. al surely know someone closer to their league is in Doriath, but you're right he might just woefully underestimate her.

... Did we have her kill werewolves in Season 2? If so, and if we had survivors, Mairon definitely knows.

I seem to recall that Melian deciding to spend so much time in Middle-earth was a big deal for the folks back in Valinor, I don't think it's been any kind of secret for yonks (to use the technical term).

Maybe her exact location wasn't known and this is going to be a facepalm moment for the bad guys as they figure out why they've been stymied in that part of Beleriand.

 

[Faelivrin]

Let’s think about this: in what way would Sauron and Morgoth, et. al., find out about Melian? Unless they can directly sense the presence of each other without specifically looking for another Ainu, the only way I can think of is that Morgoth (having heard it in Valinor) knows that Melian is... somewhere in Middle-earth. Nobody in Valinor knew where, though. She didn’t emerge from Nan Elmoth until after the island had gone for the last time. But “Melian is somewhere in Middle-earth.” is no more informative than “Oromë likes to wander Middle-earth hunting my monsters.” What would lead them to specifically suspect, and look for, a Maia right here in Beleriand?

I think her presence will come as a surprise when she makes the Girdle. Speaking of which, will it be possible to show the Girdle in terms of shadow and darkness, not light? That is, instead of showing light pushing away shadow-spiders, can we somehow show wholesome, good shadow repelling foul evil shadows? That would be my preference.


Re: Dragons: dripping poisonous saliva, poisoned slime trails that kill plant life, poisonous blood, and maybe poisonous fumes I can get behind. Glaurung does produce poisonous steam by immersing his boiling hot (and slimy) body in a river, which wouldn't produce the same steam if a non-fiery dragon did it. But the water would still be poisoned and defiled. What I want to avoid is the D&D depiction of Dragons as exhaling ice-bolts, explosions, and 30-100 foot long high-pressure streams of acid and contact-poison. It's really neat, but not an Arda thing IMO.

Side question: Do the sons of Feanor each have a "host" of elves who follow them specifically and live with them? Do they divide that way before Feanor's death? If so, what happens to Amras' people? Would he actually live alone?

Yes, every prince has their own group of people and followers. So they each have civilians, soldiers, captains, healers, artisans, and (presumably) friends who aren’t their family.

In principle like Brian’s ideas about Amros, but I want to be very careful that his story doesn’t repeat the character arcs of Maedhros and Maglor. Those two are in all versions (except the Lost Tales) shown as the brothers most reluctant to continue Kinslaying, and as-written the only two who actually repent, and who try hardest to get out of the Oath and not fulfill it. This is apparently the direct cause of their surviving the longest. It’s part of what makes them more likeable (or less hateable) than their brothers. I’m not willing to take that story away from them, or have Amros just do exactly the same. I think at the very least there should be a clear distinction between Amros regretting the Oath without regretting the Kinslayings, vs. Maedhros and Maglor regretting and then repenting the Kinslayings but only more slowly regretting and opposing the Oath itself. All three do spend 26 years refusing to fulfil it, including 11 years of withstanding some kind of (apparently magical) torment, so they were all clearly actually quite dedicated to trying to prevent another Kinslaying and/or breaking the Oath. I just cannot imagine them doing that if any of them was OK with business as usual, or felt no regret/remorse. But Amros’ reasons should be unique, as is his response in the texts. Spite and maybe hate against the Oath and his father, and determination to spoil/oppose/undo his father's legacy, would be rather distinct. He can also be remorseful as well, but probably less than Maedhros and Maglor.

Another suggestion (in this thread??) that was rather disturbing (and akin to suicide) was to try to break the Oath so as to join his twin Amrod in whatever fate befell him -- even if that's the Void. That's very dark and I would not want that self-destructive attitude to be present for most of the story, but it would work at/prior to the Third Kinslaying and make that story even more disturbing and tragic.

I’m OK with the idea that he ultimately concludes that fulfilling the Oath is the only destiny left to him – and we can show through the somewhat different behavior of Maedhros and Maglor at the Third Kinslaying that Amros was tragically mistaken about this.

I do especially like the suggestions that his interactions with his brothers, and with Men and Dwarves, ultimately helps add to the tragedy of betrayals the Noldor experience. It won’t work with Celegorm and Curufin (they crossed Dorthonion to Tol Sirion, and fled down the Sirion a few years later) but it can work in other circumstances.

 

[Faelivrin]

So....can anyone think of any future uses for shadow-demons in our story?

In one or all of the major battles, and as spies. To abduct Elves to Angband for slavery and torture. And (retroactively) identifying them with the shadow-hunter(s) who used to abduct Elves at Kuivienen.

But more interestingly: Do shadow, disguise, and hiding one's identity/thoughts/motives have something in common? I think they do, thematically and mythologically and textually. So, what if one of those demons is the demon that impersonates Amlach at the dissension among the Edain in Estolad? Some of the Edain are arguing that they don't want to squander their short lives helping the Elves, giving various arguments. Their opponents argue that Morgoth hates Mortals, not just Elves, and if they don't oppose him he'll overrun all of Middle-earth.

But there arose one who seemed to all to be Amlach son of Imlach, speaking fell words that shook the hearts of all who heard him: 'All this is but Elvish lore, tales to beguile newcomers that are unwary. The Sea has no shore. There is no Light in the West. You have followed a fool-fire of the Elves to the end of the world! Which of you has seen the least of the Gods? Who has beheld the Dark King in the North? Those who seek the dominion of Middle-earth are the Eldar.

He goes on for a while about how the Orcs are the natives and rightful owners of Beleriand and the Elves the aggressors, and the whole conflict is none of their business. Later the real Amlach comes back and denies saying those things. He decides that he has a personal quarrel with Morgoth now, and goes off to be a vassal to the Elves.


The question is how to convey "this is a demon imposter/doppleganger" or specifically "this is a shadow-demon" before Amlach comes back and says that was not him -- without making the others look like fools for thinking it was Amlach. Perhaps a visual cue in the fake Amlach casting a shadow that looks wrong? Something in his eyes? Show a shadowy shape that nobody notices, slinking away after the debate?

This happens on other occasions -- before Humans arrived, Morgoth sent rumors and lies around Beleriand to stir up strife between Noldor and Sindar, and it worked. Well, you spread rumors either by speaking them while in disguise (dopplegangers) or by telepathically intruding them into unsuspecting minds while invisible or disguised (as Olorin does to the Elves in Valinor, but with wise suggestions instead of lies.) They can be disguised as people, or as a shadow under a tree or rock, or a shadow among shadows at night.

Showing a demon's telepathic influence would be more difficult, but may be possible. Imagine a scene where Sindar are doing something, discussing the Noldor, and there's a shadow that shouldn't be there in a corner. Some combination of subtle visual cues and a discordant musical theme could indicate the demon's influence, preceeding one of the Sindar saying something demon-inspired... or maybe that's too unsubtle (or cheesy) and the demons should just speak words while disguised as Elves.

 

[Marielle]

Showing a demon's telepathic influence would be more difficult, but may be possible. Imagine a scene where Sindar are doing something, discussing the Noldor, and there's a shadow that shouldn't be there in a corner. Some combination of subtle visual cues and a discordant musical theme could indicate the demon's influence, preceeding one of the Sindar saying something demon-inspired... or maybe that's too unsubtle (or cheesy) and the demons should just speak words while disguised as Elves.

Telepathy will be difficult, but I think possible. Another option would be to (sparingly!) reflect colored lights in actor's eyes while they're under suggestion or "possession". Not red eyes, but light with red or green reflections that shouldn't be there. That might be too subtle on its own, and cheesy if overt, but a few subtle effects set together might make it clear enough without being silly.

 

[MithLuin]

Re: Passage of Time and Scale

The Battle-under-Stars lasts for 10 days in the text. So I agree that it's not a quick jaunt from Lake Mithrim to the Gates of Angband (or back).

However...conveying that is so very, very tricky when there is no sun and moon, and everything is just lit by perpetual starlight and torchlight and lamps. The concept of time passing in this season is a very difficult thing to convey to the audience. In prior seasons, a cut away and a cut back could involve an elf growing from childhood to adulthood within an episode. The time skips in the first and second Seasons were pretty big and pretty frequent, because of the pace of the story telling. We showed elves traversing most of the continent in...one episode.

In Season 3, everything is much more tightly paced, but the audience doesn't necessarily know that. Their only clue that it doesn't take 40 years to cross the Helcaraxë is that Idril is still a child by the end.

Our Beleriand storyline has had very few time markers in it thus far. The viewer could have concluded that years are passing...or that these events are 'the next day.' The main clue is that everything that happens after the rising of Thangorodrim is post-return-of-Morgoth.

For the Fëanoreans, Celebrimbor still looks like a teenager, so the audience will get that this isn't a matter of years. And the camp at Mithrim will not be very well established when it is attacked, so the idea that it's 'soon' after they arrive should fit.


Fëanor, in the text, does not die where he falls. We will want to preserve the idea that the balrogs don't know they've killed him. So, the long journey back to Mithrim, with his death occurring during the crossing of the mountains, will have some concept of scale in that the view of Thangorodrim should be very different as they get to the Ered Wethrin. So, yes, I agree that if we *wanted* to show some private time between Fëanor and any of his sons during that journey, we could arrange it, so long as they are all present at his death scene. I would prefer Fëanor's vision of the failure of his enterprise to be something he keeps to himself. We're going to show visions and dreams on screen. We already have, with Míriel, with Círdan, with Turgon. So, there is nothing unusual with the audience catching a glimpse of something Fëanor sees, but does not share with others.




Re: Melian

Melian's emergence from Nan Elmoth in Season 2 did coincide with her saving a group of elves from werewolf attack. So, I would think that Sauron is at least aware that there is *some* power in Doriath, though he would be less likely to know that it's Melian. (I doubt she let any of those wolves survive.) And, likewise, Morgoth may very well be aware that Melian is in Middle Earth, but would have no reason to know or suspect that she's in Doriath. So, I'm fine with Sauron assigning the 'take on whatever you find there' task to Tevildo, as it should not seem surprising that he is unaware of Melian's true power at this time. The creation of the Girdle is her 'Melian is here' writ in signs everyone can read

 

[Haakon]

Two quick thoughts.

1. If the distance to Angband is great, perhaps Fëanor didn’t get all the way there from the battle? Perhaps he just got halfway or something?

2. When do we kill Tevildo?

 

[Marielle]

IIRC, both Thuringwethil and Draugluin bite it during the Beren and Luthien story, so it makes sense to complete the set and off Tivildo then -- making clear how much of a sheer disaster the event was for Sauron. Maybe Tivildo gets trapped/abandoned in the tower when Luthien sings it down?

 

[Haakon]

I guess... But the story of Beren and Luthien doesn’t include Tevildo so I’d rather finish his story earlier. Not now, necessarily, but earlier than that.

 

[Marielle]

Well, really the versions of the Lengendarium that has Sauron in the B&L story doesn't have Tivildo at all, lol. But point taken. And we might want to give Huan a crowning moment of awesome between now and then, after all - I do insist that Huan kills the prince of cats. I don't think I'll be persuaded to budge on this one.

 

[MithLuin]

I think Tevildo can be done in some time during the Seige, or Battle of Sudden Flame timeframe. I don't have any good ideas for when we kill him.

But yes, Boldog, Thuringwethil, and Draugluin are all dead within the Beren and Lúthien timeframe.

 

[Faelivrin]

1. If the distance to Angband is great, perhaps Fëanor didn’t get all the way there from the battle? Perhaps he just got halfway or something?

Right, I don’t think he got more than halfway towards the gate, at most. Balrogs can “issue from Angband” with great speed and cover most of that distance themselves.

I think Tevildo can be done in some time during the Seige, or Battle of Sudden Flame timeframe. I don't have any good ideas for when we kill him.

Preferably not in the Bragollach, if Aegnor kills a Balrog. Can’t have too many significant victories in the Ruin of Beleriand, after all. Dagor Aglareb may work, or Huan at Tol Sirion, or some smaller battle (of which there will be some).

 

[Marielle]

A smaller battle might be best. We might want a mini (small part of 2-3 episodes) Celegorm & Huan subplot before we get to Beren and Luthien, to remind the audience of their bond. The death of Tivildo could be the climax of that.

But that’s way off topic for the Making of the Sun and Moon!

 

[Marielle]

Preferably not in the Bragollach, if Aegnor kills a Balrog. Can’t have too many significant victories in the Ruin of Beleriand, after all. Dagor Aglareb may work, or Huan at Tol Sirion, or some smaller battle (of which there will be some).

Is Aegnor going to kill the balrog? I thought he was just going to be killed by it...

 

[Marielle]

When it comes to the physicality of the Sun and Moon, I confess I am unable to escape the image of chariots, as in Greek myth. I’ve long imagined the Sun as a golden chariot, highly reflective and bright, while the Moon is of a smooth white wood, softly glowing. In both, the flower or fruit would have pride of place in the chariot, with its respective Maia serving as charioteer.

And I’m completely on the side of leaving most of the Book of Lost Tales version yo the side. ‘‘Tis a silly tale.

 

[Faelivrin]

Is Aegnor going to kill the balrog? I thought he was just going to be killed by it...

Maybe. It was a suggestion, and I like it. It’s being discussed in the Narsil thread.

I prefer the Sun and Moon to be either globes or boats/ships. Of the Lost Tales story some details are worth preserving — particularly the idea that the Sun and Moon are much huger and brighter than a single normal flower of each Tree, and the Sun is hotter than a single flower of Laurelin. The idea that the Valar are somewhat disquieted or at least surprised at what the Marred Trees and their songs have produced.

Which Valar should play parts in making them, besides Yavanna and Nienna? Which were depicted being involved in making the Trees? This differs in the early (highly detailed) and later (vaguer) versions.

 

[MithLuin]

One of the transformations from Book of Lost Tales --> Later Myths that Tolkien made was to leave out the physical details of magic. It was no longer about mixing particular ingredients in a particular way. It became all about singing a song of making something so, or just saying it. So, Gandalf's 'spells' are things like 'Open!' or 'Fire against the werewolf-host!' Whereas in (very) early versions of the story, Lúthien had to sew Beren into his wolf-skin and then teach him to walk like a wolf.

I think we should focus on the most important message we want to get from the scene, and then figure out how to convey that, rather than focus on the physical technicalities of how we go from a fruit and flower of a Tree to the Sun and Moon. We are not going to show how these vessels can fly/traverse the sky, I wouldn't think. They're not going to have rocket boosters. There's all sorts of scale issues, but luckily filling a space is something light is really good at doing. So...handwave everything, and focus on character and message.

All that being said, magic in his world is not wholly divorced from the physical reality. Galadriel's mirror relies on the medium of water and is just like what you'd expect from a scrying dish. The palantiri are stones that can be moved around. You can put a spell on a sword to give it abilities that a sword wouldn't typically have. Wizards carry staffs. I am not suggesting that we in any way alter the detail of the last flower and the last fruit being the physical connection between the Trees and the Sun and Moon. But the details of how you get that to grow, how you carry it to its new vessel, how that vessel gets into the sky? Maybe that doesn't really matter. Maybe you can gloss over a lot of this with massive amounts of lens flare and some singing Valar.

This scene is a last hurrah for the Valar, so involving as many of them as possible would seem to make sense (without it turning into a role call). Obviously Yavanna and Nienna have to be involved. Nienna may be more connected to the Moon than the Sun, because no one ever associates the Sun with Mourning; and Yavanna may be more involved with the Sun, as that's all about giving life and light, and the Moon not so much. What role should Varda play? This is light, after all, totally her realm. Or does she just supply Arien? And Aulë could be behind any vessel construction, even if we don't show it. I have to imagine Vana's flowers would like the new light, and if we need someone to dance with flowers blooming under her footfalls, there's always Nessa. Oromë provides Tilion. Perhaps Ulmo isn't even there? For someone whose not supposed to be there all the time, he sure does spend a lot of time with the other Valar....

For Mandos...what do people think of the idea that Námo's heraldic device has been a sun in eclipse all along? It would have just looked like a dark circle with a corona of white light behind it, so no one would have known what it was meant to be. If I'm not mistaken, this is an idea that shows up in Fiondil's fanfiction of Valinor, though it may have a source in Tolkien's writing that I'm forgetting about. Regardless, it's a fascinating concept, and I'd love to adopt it.

 

[Faelivrin]

I agree that physical details should be largely left out, in favor of singing. We can show these huge things growing into being and not, necessarily, even name what they will be. Then, in later episodes, the Lights rise and the audience will know what they are.

The detail about being larger, brighter, and hotter is important not only for the sake of the scale of the Trees themselves which each presumably had thousands of flowers, but to avoid giving the impression that the Trees were hundreds or thousands of times brighter than the Sun and Moon.

As a result of this fullness and intensity of description, the origin of the Sun and Moon in the last fruit and last flower of the Trees has less of mystery than in the succinct and beautiful language of The Silmarillion; but also much is said here to emphasize the great size of the 'Fruit of Noon', and the increase in the heat and brilliance of the Sunship after its launching, so that the reflection rises less readily that if the Sun that brilliantly illumines the whole Earth was but one fruit of Laurelin then Valinor must have been painfully bright and hot in the days of the Trees. In the early story the last outpourings of life from the dying Trees are utterly strange and 'enormous', those of Laurelin portentous, even ominous; the Sun is astoundingly bright and hot even to the Valar, who are awestruck and disquieted by what has been done (the Gods knew 'that they had done a greater thing than they at first knew', p. 212); and the anger and distress of certain of the Valar at the burning light of the Sun enforces the feeling that in the last fruit of Laurelin a terrible and unforeseen power has been released. This distress does indeed survive in The Silmarillion (p. 100), in the reference to 'the prayers of Lorien and Este, who said that sleep and rest had been banished from the Earth, and the stars were hidden'; but in the tale the blasting power of the new Sun is intensely conveyed in the images of 'the heat dancing above the trees' in the gardens of Lorien, the silent nightingales, the withered poppies and the drooping evening flowers.

(emphasis mine)

Some sense of the scale of these Lights will have to be shown, and therefore decided upon, because they will be in the scene next to the Trees and the humanoid-shaped Valar, whose size relative to Elves has been visually established. I don't see how we can avoid deciding how large they are. So, IMO they should be enormously larger than the normal, everyday flowers of their respective Trees.


I was wondering:

• Do we show that Aule is going to modify or englobe/encapsulate the Fruit and Flower?
• In the Lost Tales, Vana helps make Laurelin, and Lorien helps make Telperion. Did you use that in Season 1? Or should we have them involved in the Sun and Moon, respectively?
• What part does Varda play?
• Does Nienna speak?
• Does Namo speak?

Dialogue: the Valar in this episode should discuss their choice not to wage war directly on Morgoth and their reasons, foreshadow that Ulmo will be doing stuff for the Exiles anyway, and also express both their determination to give light to all of Arda, and their concern for the well-being of Men (because the Valar often come across as not caring about Mortals, and we don't want to make that impression). Since we can't show that the Light of the Trees was holy and the new light is poisoned and less beautiful, Varda or Nienna or Yavanna should observe this with sorrowful words.

For Mandos...what do people think of the idea that Námo's heraldic device has been a sun in eclipse all along? It would have just looked like a dark circle with a corona of white light behind it, so no one would have known what it was meant to be. If I'm not mistaken, this is an idea that shows up in Fiondil's fanfiction of Valinor, though it may have a source in Tolkien's writing that I'm forgetting about. Regardless, it's a fascinating concept, and I'd love to adopt it.

I think that there should be things that even Mandos doesn't foresee. This can be one of them.... or not. I also don't know why the Valar need to have heraldry at all.

 

[MithLuin]

Perhaps 'heraldry' is a poor choice, but 'motifs' - they each are going to have spaces to decorate and Maiar followers to clothe, and so they will have certain symbolism associated with them. We've got their color schemes nailed down, and for some of them, associated motifs (like feathers for Manwë), but this would be a specific image, and so...we could consider using it.

Mandos does not foresee everything. But the things he does not foresee are the actions most tied to an individual's free will contravening fate. The destruction of the Trees and the creation of the Sun and Moon seems rather...fated. The Sleep of Yavanna implies that even Yavanna knew the lands of Middle Earth would be lit again someday. So, I have no problem with Námo and Vairë have an advanced heads-up on the Sun and Moon. Doesn't mean they have to give any indication of that, though.

As for the Trees, we focused on the roles of Yavanna and Nienna in making them as a joint effort; Vana and Lorien are not directly involved (though, IIRC, there is a Lorien and Yavanna conversation in that episode? I'd have to go check.) Regardless, we could involve them now. We've been trying to stick with Nienna speaking in a more one-on-one context, and less addressing a full assembly, though we have had her speak in the Ring of Doom (at Melkor's Trial, for instance). Vairë never speaks on our show; she communicates solely via tapestry.

 

[Marielle]

So, I have no problem with Námo and Vairë have an advanced heads-up on the Sun and Moon. Doesn't mean they have to give any indication of that, though.

And, of course, having a foreknowledge that the Sun and Moon will someday be doesn't mean knowledge of exactly how, especially since that is so tied up in the free choices of Melkor and Feanor.