Session 3.16 - S3Ep11: The Making of the Sun and the Moon

It is plausible that Namo had a foreknowledge that lights would be derived from the Trees and placed in the sky. However, I think that:
  1. Yavanna didn't have such foreknowlege, she only hoped for some kind of light for Middle-earth.
  2. Melkor and Ungoliante darkening Valinor was a free-willed action.
  3. If the Darkening hadn't happened, the Valar could still have decided to (and in fact, upon Mandos' words decided not to) put similar lights in the sky, anyway.
  4. The Sun and Moon aren't all that pertinant to Namo's domain. But I could be talked into it.
  5. Solar eclipses, in particular, are caused by Tilion getting far too close to Sun, which is both free-willed by him and definitely not the Valar's plan.
To illustrate what I mean about scale and the size of the Sun and Moon relative to the normal flowers of the Two Trees, I drew a magnificant painting of the Trees according to two different scales. At the top are the Moon and Sun, as fairly large objects. At left all of the flowers are equally huge, and it looks goofy. At right, the normal flowers are much smaller, which looks a lot better IMO. There is a third option not pictured, in which the flowers are equally small but the Sun and Moon are also small.

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And now, for FUN WITH MATH:

The real moon and sun have the same apparent size in the sky because, although the sun is 400 times as wide, it's also 400 times farther away. So the Sun in Arda can be the same size and distance as the Moon. If the Moon and Sun have the same apparent size as in real life:

If they're as high as the top of the stratosphere (above the ozone layer in real life) at 50 km, then they have diameters of 452 meters.
If they're as high as the top of the troposphere (maybe equivalent to the top of Ilmen?) at ~17 km, their diameters are 154 meters each.
If they're lower than that (maybe in the middle of Ilmen, or perhaps only as high as Taniquetil's peak) they can be smaller. Everest is 8.8 km tall, and Taniquetil must be taller. So at 10 km altitude, they would have diameters of 90 meters each.

But in any case, either they must be HUGE or very close, yet they shouldn't be much lower than Taniquetil's peak.

Now, the Flower and Fruit themselves might not be quite so huge. Their light might be contained and spread out in larger, spherical or hemispherical lamp-vessels. And we of course do not need to decide on specific numbers. But they should be enormous.
 
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I agree that the vessels should be very large, and *seem* large on screen, before going into the sky. But I think that anything realistic isn't going to work, so we should go for mythic here.
 
I want to return to Amras for a bit, I have another suggestion.

The fact that he is a twin is super important and one we can't just throw away. Now the way we think about identical twins today is perhaps to focus on their similarity, but in mythology the focus is often the opposite - that is, twins in mythology is often representing opposites - if one represents the Sun, then the other one is the Moon, and so on. (We have actually already done this with Elrond's sons, where one is violent and the other one less so). If we apply this to Amrod and Amras, we could say that since Amrod wants to break the Oath and return to Valinor and their mother, Amras should be excited about the Oath and be on his fathers side - initially. The burning and Amrod's death changes all that. Not only should he be furiuos and resentful, but I suggest that he feels that he has to carry Amrod's will. He becomes a representative of both opposing wills, and ends up having a balanced position. What does this mean? It means that he sees both perspectives and also sees things more clearly - he sees that they all will die trying to fullfill the Oath. If he's on anybody's side, it will be on Námo's side. He will be his representative. He won't have objections to fighting in wars or in Kinslayings, but he knows it is all futile. Maybe he will talk about the Doom a lot more than people would like. If so, he will serve as a reminder of the Doom.
 
He'd be like an outcrop of the Norse worldview (we're all doomed, why not embrace it?).

Now, how would we integrate that with the 26 years he joins Maedhros and Maglor in trying to break the Oath?
 
He'd be like an outcrop of the Norse worldview (we're all doomed, why not embrace it?).

Now, how would we integrate that with the 26 years he joins Maedhros and Maglor in trying to break the Oath?
I’m not sure exactly what he does at all times during those years and how he’s trying to break it. Maybe he’s just trying to prove that it’s impossible to break.
 
Or it would fit with the suggestion that at the end he degenerates into behaving almost like Crazy!Denethor at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. First, We're all doomed but maybe I want to end up with Amrod, whereever he is, so I'll break the Oath.
Followed by, Those people at the Havens are doomed anyway, Morgoth is winning, why not kill them? 'Slain ye shall be,' so why not die in a Kinslaying? We'll all burn one way or another!

He isn't crazy for most of the First Age, but the strain of fighting the Oath for 26 years finally snaps his sanity. Kind of the way Turin says crazy-sounding things when he finally finds out who Niniel was.
 
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could Curufin kill Amras? It would certainly have to be secret, but it would cement so many parallels between Fëanor and Curufin (each kills an Ambarussa in fell service to the Oath). Maybe Amras does try to leave for parts unknown, but Curufin follows and kills him, without any of the other brothers knowing. This preserves Amras as a tragic character, it brings the Oath home, it ensures that Fëanorians always die of betrayal, kinslaying, or suicide, and it is a way to prevent a disillusioned Amras from spilling the beans about the Fëanorians to the Sindar -- something Curufin especially might think to forestall. I like the idea of Amras choosing to leave -- my only hesitation is that it might be too dark for Curufin at this stage.
Maybe Amras could be the one to "leak" the word about the kinslaying to the Sindar?
Maybe he leaves the feanorians, and go to the host of Fingolfin when they arrive. How does the Fingolfinians respond? Do they welcome him? Do they turn him away because "he burned the ships"? Does he go to Doriath? I think that he'll go to Doriath next season after they have met the Sindar.

Maybe he leaves the feanorians because of the tension building up between them (under the leadership of Curufin) and Fingolfin. He doesn't want to be involved in any more kinslaying.
I think Maedhros was close to Amras, so when he hears that he's been rescued by Fingon he'll come to the feast of reuniting to meet him. I would love to see Maedhros comfort Amras. They haven't really had time to talk much about losing Amrod (or they father). Maedhros will inspire Amras to live on by focusing on Morgoth. Yes, Feanor did bad things, but Morgoth is so much worse. Amras will have a good relationship with Maedhros and Maglor, but keeps distance to Celegorm, Caranthir and Curufin.
 
I don't imagine him leaking rumors about the Kinslaying he’s guilty of. But the burning? Certainly.

Not sure either way about the Feast of Reuniting. There’s no version in which he attends, so if he’s avoiding Maglor and uninterested in his cousins he likely wouldn’t go. But he could go. Maybe he arrives by the southern route thinking “Surely none of my brothers except Maedhros will want to — oh crud there’s Maglor. Hmph.”

I do not foresee positive relationships with Maglor, Turgon, Finrod’s siblings, or especially anyone in Doriath. If Maglor is willing to openly express his remorse over killing Amrod* I suppose Amros might dislike him less intensely than his brothers. Like, maybe more of an indifferent cold shoulder.

*He probably would be... once Feanor is dead and not about to jump down his throat for it.
 
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I agree that the vessels should be very large, and *seem* large on screen, before going into the sky. But I think that anything realistic isn't going to work, so we should go for mythic here.
Could they start out merely large on the ground, then grow to unfeasibly huge as they ascend into the firmament? Along with some suitable music, obviously ("Can it, Marvin!" :D).
 
So why would Amras be cold to Maglor in particular? And which one of the brothers, or Feanor, would be directly responsible for burning the ship carrying Amrod?
 
I was only disagreeing with Alcarohtar that Amros would forgive Maglor so much more readily than the others who burned the ships.


EDIT: I noticed that in the Ep 9 podcast, the Hosts seemed open to considering a 2-hour episode. Does that look necessary (and appropriate) for 12 and/or 13? If we keep having trouble fitting all of what's supposed to go in each episode into the actual script outline, we may come up short on time. I think we're in danger of being short of time this episode and Ep 12, but not Ep 13.
 
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I was only disagreeing with Alcarohtar that Amros would forgive Maglor so much more readily than the others who burned the ships.


EDIT: I noticed that in the Ep 9 podcast, the Hosts seemed open to considering a 2-hour episode. Does that look necessary (and appropriate) for 12 and/or 13? If we keep having trouble fitting all of what's supposed to go in each episode into the actual script outline, we may come up short on time. I think we're in danger of being short of time this episode and Ep 12, but not Ep 13.

This is pretty much a new problem for us. I do have concerns that E13 is a bit light, but I hope everyone can be convinced to move as much E10 stuff to E11, as much E11 stuff to E12, and as much E12 stuff to E13 as possible. I'd much rather to a two hour for the finalé than the episode immediately preceding it.
 
This is pretty much a new problem for us. I do have concerns that E13 is a bit light, but I hope everyone can be convinced to move as much E10 stuff to E11, as much E11 stuff to E12, and as much E12 stuff to E13 as possible. I'd much rather to a two hour for the finalé than the episode immediately preceding it.
Two hour finale, that seems like a good plan.
 
I would agree that normally the two-hour episode should be the finale.

The difficulty is that rising the Moon seems like it should be the final WOW of Ep 12, and rising the Sun should be the big WOW of Ep 13. They ought to be in separate episodes. And I will continue to object to Maedhros being chained after the Moon rises and Fingolfin arrives. The Girdle also shouldn't come after the Moon.

Can we move Eol's purchase of Nan Elmoth to Ep 13?

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in the outlines is the Nandorin reaction to Denethor's death. We need to show their great mourning, their decisison to never have a new leader/king, and the Guest-Elves moving into Doriath. The latter could plausibly be moved to Season 4 after the Girdle I guess, but I'd rather have it in this season.


I would prefer to go something like this:
(things that I think cannot be moved to a later episode)

Episode 10: Dagor-nuin-Giliath (edit: this now shows what we actually outlined)
Fëanor and his sons start falling out
Laiquendi mourn for Denethor, argue with Dwarves
First Battle of Beleriand (East) aftermath - Dwarves attack Boldog’s retreating army
Eöl uses Anglachel fighting with the Dwarves against the Orcs, ends his friendship with Telchar
Círdan and Celeborn discuss the burned ships
Crossing the Helkaraxë pt. 3 - Death of Elenwë
Second Battle of Beleriand (North) - a surprise attack at Lake Mithrim leads to a rout of the Orcs; Celegorm intercepts Sauron’s werewolves and drive them into a swamp. Fëanor wounded by Gothmog, and Balrogs from Angband.

Episode 11: The Last Light (edit: this now shows what we actually outlined)
Second Battle aftermath - Death of Fëanor
More falling out among the sons of Fëanor
Valar Interlude - Council of the Valar, Making of the Sun and the Moon, Tilion and the Aurora
Spiders attack Menegroth - surprise!
the Laiquendi will have no new King, Saeros plans to go to Doriath
Beleg reaches Doriath, brings a message to Melian
Sauron’s false parley begins

Episode 12: Despair and Hope
Sauron’s false parley leads to Maedhros’ capture
Maedhros’ brothers refuse to bargain with Morgoth, Maedhros is interrogated (tortured)
Melian creates the Girdle, repels the spiders from Doriath
Crossing the Helcaraxë pt 3 - Endurance through cold, misery, and starvation

Boldog's remnant army returns to Angband
Círdan’s scouts discover the Ñoldor at Lake Mithrim
Fingolfin reaches Middle-earth, Rising of the Moon

Episode 13: A New Age
Hiding of Valinor (Valar send-off)
Eöl buys Nan Elmoth with Anglachel
Círdan reports the arrival of the Ñoldor to Thingol
Saeros and Guest-Elves go to Doriath (this is a retreat)
Fëanorians fortify camp in Mithrim, Maglor declared King (this is a retreat)
Fingolfin's folk rest, skirmish with some Orcs, then march across the land to Thangorodrim
Rising of the Sun
Maedhros has already been chained to Thangorodrim (proposed as penultimate or final image)
Beleriand and Mithrim start changing immediately and visibly
Uneasy detente between Fingolfin and Maglor's camps at Mithrim
Fingolfin reforging Ringil (proposed as penultimate or final image)
Awakening of the Second Children (proposed as final image)
 
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Interesting! Just some quick thoughts: I think we have the "Aurora on Helcaraxë" scenes in E10 already. Also, Elenwë died in the first scenes on the Helcaraxë, in E9 I believe. I think we can leave Fingolfin out of E11 or move the Aurora part from E10 to E11 - in any case, one of the episodes could be without Helcaraxë scenes without risking that the viewers lose the story. If we do it like in your outline, we get a shorter Tilion story, which could work, and we also get a story where the Aurora helps Fingolfin through the final push of the crossing, which would be nice.


I'm beginning to think that we can't do the battle in the Sky, unfortunately.


We were given the task to think about the shift in perspective that's going to happen at this point of the story. The arrival of the Sun in particular signals a shift from a more magical setting which has much more to do with fairie and myth and non realistic events. We have been through this talking about the Sleep of Yavanna for example, and Tolkien had different ideas of how to deal with this shift, with thoughts about whether Arda should be flat or round etc. My opinion is that once we have that Sun, we can't treat things as magical as we could before. They are still magical and fairie, but the mythological level of it all is reduced. Before, we could have pillars rising up so high above the ground that the lamps they supported could spread light on an enormous part of Arda. That's impossible now.

This shift happens not only because the Valar want to help the Noldor, but as a response to Morgoth taking over Middle-earth and spreading his power into it. The Sun is the Valar's counterattack and weakens his power. His forces are still strong at night, but fear the light of the Sun.

The Sun also wakes the Men. This means that this is the beginning of a world that is recognisable to people of the human species. We have day and night, and not only that, we have Time. Before, we could be uncertain of how long events lasted, it didn't exactly matter, everyone lived forever and stayed the same. We had Ages, but they didn't matter much to anybody except maybe for Melkor who was locked up. But with mortal Men we have to notice Time passing. It means something now. This sequence of events (Morgoth taking over Middle-earth, rising of the Sun, waking of the Men) is of course happening as in the Music of Ainulindalë and all part of Eru's plan. Everything is leading to the age of Men.

Most of this is a season 4 issue but since the birth of Men and the beginning of importance of Time and the less mythological world all happen as a consequence of the rising of the Sun, we can't really have a mythological battle once the Sun is up.

Yes - the battle is supposed to happen before the rising of the Sun! But can we really have a mythological battle involving the Moon and then show the Sun just as a regular Sun? I believe that would be confusing. We should show them in Valinor as played by actors and with magical aspects of their vehicles or whatever, but then make a transition and show them only as regular Moon and Sun in the sky seen from Middle-earth. Having mythological beings and action in the sky above Middle-earth would not make sense at this point. (And shadow spirits attacking the Moon won't work either, since they would come from Middle-earth)
 
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We didn't have time to include the death of Elenwe in the Ep 9 script outline. We haven't outlined Ep 10 yet, but I think we'll run into the same thing we did in Ep 9: that showing the battle properly takes up practically all of the episode, leaving not enough room for everything we initially wanted to include. In this case, there will also be 2 separate fronts to depict (Feanorians and Dwarves). In any case, I was trying to see how we could move events forward on the timeline, like Nick suggested.

You've got a very good point about the thematic issues of having the shadow spirits battle in the sky. I'll have to think about it more...
If we don't do the sky battle, then once the Moon rises, we wouldn't show Tilion on/with it... ever again, unless he takes part in the War of Wrath. Same for Arien and the Sun. That emphasizes the shift. You're saying that if we do include the sky battle, it would undermine the thematic shift from a higher level of mythical fantasy to a more down-to-earth, recognizeable world. I think you may be right. To some extent we've been moving towards that world already by showing less and less of Aman, and more and more of Middle-earth, admittedly in the dark ...

Does it still work to have the Hiding of Valinor in the same episode as rising the Sun? It is an emphasis of the removal of the Valar from directly being depicted as characters, and from directly intervening in the story. They made the Moon and Sun, but from now on they're mostly hands-off, to "appear" most of the time as leitmotif music that implies a much more subtle intervention in key moments. Tolkien also wrote that raising the Pelori to greater heights and building the Shadowy Isles (after making the Moon and Sun) was the very last large, constructive, demiurgic thing the Valar did, ever in all of Time. As history becomes more defined, the possible future paths are fewer and more constrained, and the Valar become less able to act on a truly large scale... except with catastrophic destruction, which they're trying to avoid doing. We might even be able to have them discuss this fact as they hide Valinor, if we can find a way to not make it corney and awkward. They will need to have a Council in which they decide not to make war on Morgoth yet, and discuss Men and everybody else in Middle-earth, maybe mourn for Feanor's fall if they haven't already done it on screen, etc. I was thinking that Council should come before making the Sun and Moon, though.

For the same thematic reason (and to avoid confusing the audience about the passage of time) we should not show the Sun and Moon repeatedly going back and forth between the east and west through the sky. We can skip over the first year of the Sun.

We are going to have to discuss how we'll show the passage of large chunks of time (years) before we have human life cycles available on screen, but that's a Season 4 issue.
 
I get what’s happening with the Helcaraxë stuff. Ok.

Yes I think we can show the Pelori being raised and Shadowy Isles being shaped anyway because that happens close to Valinor.

I agree that we have to avoid the Sun going back and forth. We don’t have to show anything about that, specifically.
 
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