Session 3.17 - S3Ep12: Penultimate to the Season Finale

Namely, real world tides existing in a flat earth scenario with a mythologically-created moon driven by someone.
 
I would think then we would want "normal" Earth tides without explanation, rather than no tides at all, if we were avoiding complication. Flat earth with tides isn't much stupider science-wise than flat earth without tides.
 
I don't necessarily disagree, but it has been written, and so it shall not be done. ;) It's hardly the most controversial decision of the episode...
 
Got some notes in! Sadly, I missed the first 30-45 minutes...so be prepared for missing points from anywhere in that time frame. Anyone who can fill in the gap, please feel free to do so! Also, I decided to add an "IMG" tag to indicate any specific imagery the hosts would like to see.


Rising of the Moon

......[Missing section].......
  • focus should be more on the reaction of the elves for the rising of the moon, whereas the focus should be more on Morgoth and followers for the rising of the sun.
  • Should, however, get a reaction from the werewolves to the moon; they are driven mad
  • IMG Flowers blooming and trolls turning to stone, flowering vines winding around them
  • IMG Light of the newly risen moon shining on the silver trumpets of the elves, particularly Fingolfin's trumpet as he blows it.

Tides...
  • We would need to choose between mythical concept of flat earth and astronomical explanation; can't have it both ways...
  • Better to give no allusion to tides. The mere fact that the host of Fingolfin have survived the Helcaraxë and arrived at Middle Earth is in itself dramatic enough.
  • IMG Fingolfin steps out onto ME and the moon rises, shining off the trumpets


Maedhros' Parley
  • Gothmog not there (or....any balrogs....as it would turn out)
  • Thuringwethil sent first, while Sauron parallels his eventual appearance as Annatar by showing up with gifts and offers of peace at the parley (he should look resplendent)
  • ....or Sauron could come in contrition to sell sincerity...
  • Celebrimbor supports the parley (first time we see him disagreeing with his father, begin to see the rift there)
Q: Why yes to the parley and why does only Maedhros go?
  • If Morgoth offers to return ALL the Silmarils, the oath would compel the sons to explore that option (They know it's likely a lie, but feel like they should go anyway)
  • Morgoth is playing on the Feanoreans' overconfidence (Celegorm and Caranthir would be the likeliest to fall for the ruse)
  • Maedhros knows it's probably a trap and wants to minimize losses as much as possible.
  • Doesn't plan a double cross but his approach is practical. Accepts the fact that he may very well die if he goes.

Balrogs....
  • The elves are overconfident and think the Balrogs ran away when really the Balrogs were paralleling the scene from Weathertop (and were successful in their case) ...
Q: What to do about the Balrog Rule, here? (i.e. Every time a Balrog shows up, someone important dies)
  • No Balrogs, trolls capture Maedhros as an alternative. They have the advantage of being new and unexpected, although not as cool as balrogs...
  • Good to associate trolls with balrogs
  • OR Have Balrogs there, and kill off Amras! (Jk, not really....for now....)
*Amras should have a different room from his brothers?
(Edit: doom*. I'd say room prooobably goes without saying, especially at this point...)
  • have Sauron do something awesome and terrifying instead of Balrogs; make it a full Sauron operation from beginning to end, have him do something by himself.
  • Maehdros is holding his own among the trolls when Sauron steps in.
*consolation for the no-balrogs change from the text - early concept balrogs were the ones at the parley anyway....
  • Sauron acts as an anti-Melian
  • Captures Maedhros with song? (Foreshadows Fingon's singing as part of freeing Maedhros)
  • Maedhros' balrog whip scars could have been gotten while fighting to rescue his dad

Círdan

Q: Why would Círdan not make contact?
  • Assuming that these are newly arrived Teleri, possibly in need of help, it would be more logical for Círdan to investigate first, send message to Thingol later. (But we don't have time for that first contact here)
  • Círdan has no reason to believe the host are hostile (Kinslaying is wholly unimaginable and therefore not at all on Círdan's mind)
  • Best solution is for Círdan to send word to Thingol immediately after discovering the ships (via red shirt messenger), that the Teleri are here, may in trouble, etc. and that he'll investigate in the meanwhile.
  • Círdan will see the camp in the moonlight, but will not make contact in this episode
  • Círdan keeps Celeborn with him so the latter can have his moment of meeting Galadriel in the moonlight
  • Messenger returns to Doriath with news, excited that the Teleri are here, but Melian has a sense of foreboding and indicates this to Thingol.

Doriath
  • Can skip Doriath scenes in this episode (Doriath is safe now, albeit it hemmed in....)
  • Return to Doriath in this episode briefly to have reaction to the moon.
  • Girdle established as Lúthien and Daeron sing vs splitting these events

Eöl
  • Nan E. transaction not really part of the dramatic arc in this season.
  • ^Should be used at the front end of Season 4 to set up the Aredhel storyline
  • Eöl is not a servant of Morgoth so should be able to pass the Girdle. He's just an elf making bad choices, not an orc.
  • Girdle not a personality evaluator

Helcaraxë
  • Fingolfin doesn't make camp, first order of business to go beat on the doors of Angband (totally oblivious to the fact that his nephew is there) then deal with Feanor.

Edit: Went back and tidied things up a little bit, so this is now more or less the "proper" version.
 
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Why no Balrogs? Doesn’t that contradict the text? It’s explicitly mentioned that Balrogs were among those Morgoth sent to the parley.
 
I don't think it's a solution that anyone is entirely satisfied with, but essentially what we stand to lose by having them present is either the fact that balrogs are incredibly formidable and a huge deal (by having them show up, yet kill no one of import), or the fact that none of the sons of Feanor are killed by the servants of Morgoth (by having the balrogs show up and kill one of them - most likely Amras...whom we have been trying to keep alive...). So, for now, not having them there in the first place seems like the best way to avoid either of those situations.
 
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Richol Richards said:
I don't think it's a solution that anyone is entirely satisfied with, but essentially what we stand to lose by having them present is either the fact that balrogs are incredibly formidable and a huge deal (by having them show up, yet kill no one of import), or the fact that none of the sons of Feanor are killed by the servants of Morgoth (by having the balrogs show up and kill one of them - most likely Amras...whom we have been trying to keep alive...). So, for now, not having them there in the first place seems like the best way to avoid either of those situations.
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Maybe having the balrogs there is an indicator that Morgoth’s cheating?
 
As Richol says in her notes, the text mentioning balrogs is from a time when balrogs were just large thugs like trolls. The difference in the balrogs allows for a change in the story here.
 
If no Balrogs are not going to show up can we have Morgoth paraphrase Denethor's quot, when he speaks to Gothmog.

'He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand.'

Gothmog and the Balrogs could firmly believe this and only come to fight when explicitly ordered by Moroght. Sauron could be the exception to the rule. He is the villain that fights from the front until his disastrous War with the Elves in the Second Age.
 
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We have established a rivalry between Sauron and Gothmog. The parley is clearly Sauron's operation. So, showing Sauron commanding balrogs would demonstrate that something is up with the bad guys and require that we explain why Morgoth made the balrogs help Sauron.

That's not *why* we can't have them, but it does explain why not having them requires less exposition than having them. We can keep the narrative elf-centric without balrogs. With balrogs, we need Angband politics.

The reason not to have them here is not to overuse them and have the audience get bored and unfazed by them. Seeing the balrogs in battle should be a rare and dramatic event. To preserve this sense of foreboding in the audience, our project has adopted a 'balrog rule' - when a balrog appears in a fight, a named character *must* die. If Maedhros survives a balrog attack here, even though he is defeated and captured (and possibly wounded), we break our rule before we've even established it. The ways around that are:
1) No balrogs appear in this attack.
2) A named character dies in this attack (ie, Amras)
3) We find another way to keep balrogs rare and awesome in battle.
We've gone with the first choice. The style of the false parley fits Sauron better than Gothmog, because it relies on guile, not brute strength. Sauron is later going to kill Gil-galad in battle, so seeing him in a battle situation (rather than simply a commander) is a good opportunity. Replacing the balrogs mentioned in this scene with trolls and Sauron allows us to introduce trolls before the rising of the Sun and still gives Maedhros an overwhelming and unexpected foe to face.

I am not pretending that nothing is lost here by removing the balrogs from this battle, but I do think that we have a compelling story in this form that will not reduce anyone to idiots. And we *just* saw balrogs kill Feanor. There is a danger of overusing them in this season, and then have the audience impatiently demanding, 'but where are the balrogs?' from now until the Battle of Sudden Flame. The idea that Morgoth is saving them for the Valar should be clear to the viewer.
 
In the session, Corey suggested that Sauron should use song magic when he attacks in the false parley. I gave this some thought, since my first reaction was that it would be difficult to pull off in a good way.

I suggest that Sauron, as a Maia, has the possibility to sing in more than one part, in harmony with himself, in this way: He begins by establishing a base drone, which should be rather hypnotic and intimidating, perhaps causing listeners to halt and break their actions. In a magical song battle, this also establishes a dominant harmony, so that a combatant is forced to follow Sauron's lead. He then lets that drone just continue while singing a melody that reflects his current goals or desires, trying to install fear or convince or charm the opponent or object of the magic.
 
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amysrevenge said:
I would think then we would want "normal" Earth tides without explanation, rather than no tides at all, if we were avoiding complication. Flat earth with tides isn't much stupider science-wise than flat earth without tides.
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Technically, the issue isn't really whether or not we can have tides. It's a question of whether or not we can have a plot-relevant tide at the same time as the Moon rises. And the answer to that seems to be 'no' - because then it *would* have to be remarked upon, and either the elves look dumb for not knowing what tides are (because they've never happened before!) or else an explanation as to why the water is fortuitously parting needs to be given (even if that explanation turns out to be 'Ulmo's help' rather than anything to do with the Moon). Either way, it would have to be remarked upon.

Showing a tide in some other scene as a normal part of a background of a shore scene would be different - it would just be, and no one would need to comment on how unusual this is or why it's happening.
 
Well, I didn’t have time to post until after Friday. I hope that the Ep 12 Lammoth battle was not pitched to the Hosts and Decided once and for all.

Thank you for the notes Richol.


MithLuin said:
The issue is that Fingolfin doesn't know where Morgoth is. While I realize you can see Thangorodrim from quite some distance away, you can't really *know* that it was built recently or sits atop a fortress or anything like that.

So, how does the Host of Fingolfin know to march right up to the gate of Angband? How do they know Angband is even there? This sequence will make more sense if they've followed some fleeing orcs home. It will also somewhat mirror Fëanor's deadly reckless approach to Angband with a much stronger show of force - Fingolfin's host is not in any danger standing at Morgoth's gate in the sunlight at this time.

That is why I suggested some sort of skirmish in Episode 13 - it gives Fingolfin a reason to march to Thangorodrim. We will also need to give him a reason to go to Mithrim, so he'll probably have to have sent scouts out who have spotted the Fëanorean camp. But by saving all of this for Episode 13, Episode 12 can be about stepping off the ice onto green land, and recuperating their strength, catching their breaths. So it might not feel like *instant* battle if we save the skirmish for the next episode.

Perhaps we are saying the same thing. Lammoth is not anywhere near the place where the Helcaraxë dumps you off into Middle-earth. A trip along the coast of Beleriand to get there would take time -- time the Host of Fingolfin uses to recuperate from their ordeal.
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I thought the whole coast from next to Hithlum to the Helkaraxe is Lammoth? Since Morgoth was there just after crossing the Ice.

But I am glad to leave the discussion for Ep 13. If they rest until they're ready to march, and they're somewhere north of Hithlum, it's plausible to show them fighting and not being defeated. Can we please keep the group of Orcs small, though (after all the Feanorians and Dwarves killed most of them), and include that they're also somewhat blinded by the Moon?

Recuperating I would actually save for Ep. 13 as well. It would be anti-climactic to show a scene of Elves sitting around on their butts munching on wild plants and sleeping after the Rising of the Moon scene(s). (Unless we spice it up with random sex... :p)

MithLuin said:
We have to talk about the parley.
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I agree Curufin should not be doing anything to actively get rid of Maedhros.

I’m liking many of Haakon’s suggestions for the parley. I’m not liking the suggestion that we show Maedhros acting honorably here.

I think part of the point, in the way Tolkien consistently wrote the parley, was that Maedhros should have acted honorably even towards Morgoth, and that what he did was wrong: he broke the agreement and broke his word, and the promise he gave the emissary was a lie. “Each purposed evil to the other” is not an endorsement of Maedhros' behavior. Both sides came to the parley with more forces than they agreed upon.

Also I think that none of the brothers are foolish enough to trust Morgoth. Because they know that obviously Morgoth intends to betray them, they don't have qualms about betraying him too. (A lot of otherwise honorable people would not go as far as Faramir in saying "I would not lie even to an orc.")

I’m very disappointed about the Balrog decision, especially since the depiction of Balrogs in the text has been misinterpreted, but there’s nothing I can do about it. :(



Regarding the Girdle, I would rather show Tevildo or his cats unable to get back into Doriath in Ep 13. We can either have Thingol invite Eol into Doriath to discuss the land purchase, or have them discuss it while Thingol is on his way back to Doriath and still outside the Girdle. Ep 12 is so packed that I just do not want to deal with Eol until Ep 13. Or Season 4, if the Hosts insist on that.

And I agree that showing Aredhel and her bodyguards being unable to enter later, when she leaves Gondolin, will serve as a good reminder to the audience.

Richol Richards said:
Can skip Doriath scenes in this episode (Doriath is safe now, albeit it hemmed in....)
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But... #12 is the episode when Melian makes the Girdle. I am confused now.
 
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The Hosts are perfectly content for the Girdle to go up in Episode 11, and leave Doriath entirely out of Episode 12.

As should be abundantly clear by now, I don't intend to outline it that way, so we'll likely be revisiting this topic with the Hosts in the Script Outline review. If they don't like the spider fight divided into two episodes, they'll make us put the Girdle back into Episode 11. I think we should have something significant happen in Doriath in the final two episodes of the season; otherwise, it's almost as awkward as jumping back to Beleriand partway through episode 3 in the first place. Not *as* bad, but almost. Also, I think the Girdle thematically fits with the rising of the Moon and whatever song-battle technique Sauron is using at the parley, rather than with the death of Fëanor and the 'meanwhile in Valinor' interlude. But obviously we haven't had the Script Discussions yet, so I'll hold off until we get there.

The executive producers are also perfectly content to save Eöl's desire to buy Nan Elmoth until next Season, making Eöl's only role in this season an elf who works with dwarves and makes weapons/armor. We can discuss how and when we want to handle this when we talk about the script outline for this episode.

Part of what hangs over the decision of 'what to do with Eöl' is (of course) what to do about Season 4 encompassing everything from the rescue of Maedhros up to the death of Fingolfin after the Battle of Sudden Flame. Either we need for that to be two seasons, or we need a lot more than 13 episodes to cover it (23 episodes?) Regardless, setting up Eöl in Nan Elmoth when we set up Turgon in Gondolin will work timeline-wise. It's the idea of having screen time for everything that is exceedingly concerning at this point. Obviously, that topic has not yet been addressed, as we're still worrying about Season 3 for now. There has been a *lot* of very flippant, 'Oh, we'll just put that in Season 4...' that is all going to come back to bite us HARD if we don't address that. But, again...a topic for the interim between seasons.


As for the battle in Lammoth, it was not really brought up, because we agreed that the arrival of Fingolfin in Middle-earth and the rising of the Moon will be at the end of the episode. So, not even time for the Host of Fingolfin to set up camp, really, in episode 12. We can discuss this further on the Episode 13 thread.
 
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...I dont think the Hosts realize how hard it is to fit all this stuff into each episode. There won't be room in Ep 11.
 
We'll have to go longer then. Or have more episodes. TV movies are typically 105 minutes, like the Sharpe films starring Sean Bean.
 
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