Session 4.03 - Frame Narrative for Season 4
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
I was just listening to the latest broadcast on youtube, as i cant get or follow them via this page.
A thing that at once stuck to my mind was Corey denying the "preachy" character of the frame, because at that moment i realized that he was wrong and the frame quite often got preachy, in the sense that we too often try to come up with a problem which relates to the story we want to tell and somehow either the narrator of the story or the storyline itself act as foils, or rather the other way around, too often our frame is constructed or set up in a way so that the silmarillion story of the episode can act as a foil to it, and I think the construction character of the frame comes out too obvious at so many points, it is vulnerable to come out as artificial, and we should avoid such a thing at all costs.I mean Corey especially mentioned the Eriol frame from LT as a negative example, for a children's books charakter, but in a way it is less so than our frame, because Eriol being told stories does not include his own Story acting as a mirror or reference point to the stories he is told, quite the opposite , his own Story is running between the individual stories and is completely independent and not running parallel to the mythology.
A thing that at once stuck to my mind was Corey denying the "preachy" character of the frame, because at that moment i realized that he was wrong and the frame quite often got preachy, in the sense that we too often try to come up with a problem which relates to the story we want to tell and somehow either the narrator of the story or the storyline itself act as foils, or rather the other way around, too often our frame is constructed or set up in a way so that the silmarillion story of the episode can act as a foil to it, and I think the construction character of the frame comes out too obvious at so many points, it is vulnerable to come out as artificial, and we should avoid such a thing at all costs.I mean Corey especially mentioned the Eriol frame from LT as a negative example, for a children's books charakter, but in a way it is less so than our frame, because Eriol being told stories does not include his own Story acting as a mirror or reference point to the stories he is told, quite the opposite , his own Story is running between the individual stories and is completely independent and not running parallel to the mythology.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I think the issue is that if the frame is not thematically linked to the main story, it kind of defeats the purpose of having one.
I've watched half of Session 3 and my thoughts are already long, so I'm posting before I finish watching.
I really like the 7-year commemoration of Erebor/Dale plan. I’d really like to use Bilbo, with Balin and Gandalf visiting the Shire and/or “fetching” him to Dale at the start. Bilbo is a voice for both reconciliation and forgiveness.
Female Dwarves attending the event: sure, yes. Fireworks, too!
Working in Arwen would be cool. She hasn't returned to Rivendell yet. Can Bilbo meet her this early?
Not sure I want Celeborn and Galadriel along.
About reconciliation itself, here are my thoughts. I apologize that they're long:
I think reconciliation and forgiveness will take time to develop over the season, and it won’t be complete. Dáin wants to make good with the Lakemen, and the Lakemen and Elves are friends with each other... but the Lakemen weren’t happy with the Dwarves, and the Dwarves and Elves are very unfriendly.
In my view, the Dwarves really do have a serious grievance against Thranduil. Yes, they trespassed. But Thranduil robbed them, and locked them in solitary confinement and total darkness, which is genuinely torture. He planned to imprison them for life. Thorin was the Heir of Dúrin. Dwarves take assaults on their Kings as an assault upon their whole clan and I think all Longbeards would be upset, including Dáin. (But I don’t see where in the Hobbit story the Elves had shot any Dwarves.)
Thranduil is ... much more racist than Celeborn. He hates Dwarves. He initially planned to sack Erebor. So... I have a hard time imagining he'll suddenly treat Dwarves with genuine respect just because they fought one battle together. After all, he also fought beside them in the Last Alliance. We can show Thranduil has begun improving a bit, and maybe Legolas is less racist than his father, or we can show Legolas’ own character development. Although, the frame can’t last more than about a year, since the Season 6 frame will be in 2951.
I'm not sure the Lakemen necessarily all want reconciliation with the Dwarves. Thranduil and the Men both brought armies to sack Erebor. The Lakemen blamed the Dwarves for stirring up the Dragon that destroyed their town. Bard spoke for moderation, he wasn’t in favor of murdering Thorin’s company ... but he did threaten them with an army.
So, Bilbo (and Bard, Celeborn’s sister... and Bombur? Roäc or his heir?) may have to make serious effort to persuade people to let this go. Between the Dwarves and Men, Dáin has already returned the treasures of old Dale, but maybe if Dwarves also helped rebuild Dale and Laketown, they might have reconciled by now. But between Elves and Dwarves, it won’t be solved by the end of the frame story. At the Council of Elrond, it appears from Glóin’s complaint that Thranduil still hadn’t even apologized for what he did to Thorin’s company, and that they haven’t forgotten it.
I really like the 7-year commemoration of Erebor/Dale plan. I’d really like to use Bilbo, with Balin and Gandalf visiting the Shire and/or “fetching” him to Dale at the start. Bilbo is a voice for both reconciliation and forgiveness.
Female Dwarves attending the event: sure, yes. Fireworks, too!
Working in Arwen would be cool. She hasn't returned to Rivendell yet. Can Bilbo meet her this early?
Not sure I want Celeborn and Galadriel along.
About reconciliation itself, here are my thoughts. I apologize that they're long:
I think reconciliation and forgiveness will take time to develop over the season, and it won’t be complete. Dáin wants to make good with the Lakemen, and the Lakemen and Elves are friends with each other... but the Lakemen weren’t happy with the Dwarves, and the Dwarves and Elves are very unfriendly.
In my view, the Dwarves really do have a serious grievance against Thranduil. Yes, they trespassed. But Thranduil robbed them, and locked them in solitary confinement and total darkness, which is genuinely torture. He planned to imprison them for life. Thorin was the Heir of Dúrin. Dwarves take assaults on their Kings as an assault upon their whole clan and I think all Longbeards would be upset, including Dáin. (But I don’t see where in the Hobbit story the Elves had shot any Dwarves.)
Thranduil is ... much more racist than Celeborn. He hates Dwarves. He initially planned to sack Erebor. So... I have a hard time imagining he'll suddenly treat Dwarves with genuine respect just because they fought one battle together. After all, he also fought beside them in the Last Alliance. We can show Thranduil has begun improving a bit, and maybe Legolas is less racist than his father, or we can show Legolas’ own character development. Although, the frame can’t last more than about a year, since the Season 6 frame will be in 2951.
I'm not sure the Lakemen necessarily all want reconciliation with the Dwarves. Thranduil and the Men both brought armies to sack Erebor. The Lakemen blamed the Dwarves for stirring up the Dragon that destroyed their town. Bard spoke for moderation, he wasn’t in favor of murdering Thorin’s company ... but he did threaten them with an army.
So, Bilbo (and Bard, Celeborn’s sister... and Bombur? Roäc or his heir?) may have to make serious effort to persuade people to let this go. Between the Dwarves and Men, Dáin has already returned the treasures of old Dale, but maybe if Dwarves also helped rebuild Dale and Laketown, they might have reconciled by now. But between Elves and Dwarves, it won’t be solved by the end of the frame story. At the Council of Elrond, it appears from Glóin’s complaint that Thranduil still hadn’t even apologized for what he did to Thorin’s company, and that they haven’t forgotten it.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
It isn't super clear exactly what happened. It says that the dwarves charged without a signal, then it talks about arrows being fired, but it isn't obvious who is shooting at whom and what casualties there might have been.
Definitely shots fired, but by who and against whom and what the results were is not certain.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
In Bilbo’s journey from Hobbiton to Erebor? Or are we not going to show his journey?
I doubt we'll have reason to show the journey there, as we will want to introduce our frame situation as soon as possible. So, episode 1 can be Gandalf and Balin visiting Bilbo and inviting him to join them for the memorial...and episode 2 would be at the Lonely Mountain.
We may have reason to visit Rivendell during the return journey, as some sort of wrap up....but we may want to show Bilbo arriving back home instead as a bookend.
We may have reason to visit Rivendell during the return journey, as some sort of wrap up....but we may want to show Bilbo arriving back home instead as a bookend.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Right. I was trying to think of a way to include Glorfindel in the story, since I’m not sure how far he goes distance wise, and as a means of tying the Frame to the main storyline.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
It might be better to save frame-Glorfindel for the Fall of Gondolin season. Find a way to squeeze him in then.
By the way...
It seems we’re about to introduce Gandalf in our series in a rather uninteresting way. I mean, this character is one of the most important and most popular in all of this. And the situation is quite undramatic and with three people who already know each other. Of course, most viewers will know who Gandalf is but we can’t tell a story that way, assuming people know things. So we should either invent a dramatic situation (not my favourite suggestion) or perhaps have Gandalf send Bilbo a letter of invitation. Or Dain sends one.
(This problem applies to Balin as well)
It seems we’re about to introduce Gandalf in our series in a rather uninteresting way. I mean, this character is one of the most important and most popular in all of this. And the situation is quite undramatic and with three people who already know each other. Of course, most viewers will know who Gandalf is but we can’t tell a story that way, assuming people know things. So we should either invent a dramatic situation (not my favourite suggestion) or perhaps have Gandalf send Bilbo a letter of invitation. Or Dain sends one.
(This problem applies to Balin as well)
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Perhaps Bilbo receives a note from Balin and Gandalf and Balin show up to escort Bilbo to Erebor. Maybe not Dain since Dain might not know Bilbo as well.
Have them pop up unexpectedly (and uninvited) and announce themselves with a bit of fireworks? In the middle of Bilbo telling a story about his adventure to some young hobbits?
A bit like this comic, but with less silliness.
Or don't show them in the Shire, show them arriving in Rivendel to be welcomed by Elrond and Glorfindel?
A bit like this comic, but with less silliness.
Or don't show them in the Shire, show them arriving in Rivendel to be welcomed by Elrond and Glorfindel?
Gandalf appeared in the Season 1 frame, accompanying Thorin and Bilbo in their Quest. So, we will likely have to rely on Bilbo's excitement at seeing him again, and questions about what he's been up to (which Gandalf should answer in a clever way) to establish just what type of wandering wizard Gandalf is. I agree that we do not need nor want an action sequence with Gandalf showing off his wizard magic at this point in the story. We want to whet the audience's appetite to anticipate that later...*much* later, when we actually get to the stories of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. For now, we can make allusions to his adventures in which Gandalf completely downplays his own role.
I know we discussed his appearance in the Season 3 Frame, but don't recall that we actually ended up using him there.
Also, Bilbo should mention the dreadful winter they just had, and indignantly mention that wolves had been seen in the Shire. To tie the Season 4 Frame not just back to the Season 1 Frame, but also to the Season 3 Frame.
I think I would prefer just starting in Erebor to joining Bilbo already on a journey arriving in Rivendell. At least the meeting in the Shire feels like a starting point. Not that I have anything against Rivendell - obviously, Elrond and Rivendell tie most of our Frame stories together. I just don't see the relevance of Rivendell to *this* Frame story, which is about peace/rebuilding/forgiveness between Dain, Bard, and Thranduil. Letting Bilbo be there shows Gandalf's wisdom in teaching hobbity resilience to the 'stiff-necked' elves and dwarves, so I'm fine with including him...but I want to get him there as expediently as possible. If, at the end of it all, Elrond and Gandalf have a 'so, how did it go?' recap conversation in which they discuss the themes of the Season, I could see how it would fit, but I don't think an 'on the way to Erebor' Rivendell stop is going to feel like anything but filler. Still, no reason to take it off the table yet.
I know we discussed his appearance in the Season 3 Frame, but don't recall that we actually ended up using him there.
Also, Bilbo should mention the dreadful winter they just had, and indignantly mention that wolves had been seen in the Shire. To tie the Season 4 Frame not just back to the Season 1 Frame, but also to the Season 3 Frame.
I think I would prefer just starting in Erebor to joining Bilbo already on a journey arriving in Rivendell. At least the meeting in the Shire feels like a starting point. Not that I have anything against Rivendell - obviously, Elrond and Rivendell tie most of our Frame stories together. I just don't see the relevance of Rivendell to *this* Frame story, which is about peace/rebuilding/forgiveness between Dain, Bard, and Thranduil. Letting Bilbo be there shows Gandalf's wisdom in teaching hobbity resilience to the 'stiff-necked' elves and dwarves, so I'm fine with including him...but I want to get him there as expediently as possible. If, at the end of it all, Elrond and Gandalf have a 'so, how did it go?' recap conversation in which they discuss the themes of the Season, I could see how it would fit, but I don't think an 'on the way to Erebor' Rivendell stop is going to feel like anything but filler. Still, no reason to take it off the table yet.
This is why I think we need to make Thranduil a child born in the 1st Age. He needs to have seen Doriath, seen Luthien and seen Menegroth. It's vital for his character and Legolas' character in my opinion. Thranduil needs to have seen the majesty and beauty of Doriath. I think it works even better if he was a child when it was destroyed. This way as a small child he saw the dwarves destroy his home.
Not to mention Legolas has a very healthy respect and love for Luthien. From the story, we can gather Legolas did not meet Luthien, so he must have got his stories and legends about her from somewhere. The awe and high esteem he holds Aragorn in, accepting unquestionably as his leader again hints to the respect he holds for Luthien. I think Thranduil is the one, who should have raised Legolas on legends of Luthien, Beren and Dior.
I would like to add that making Celegorm's sister an ancester of Elwing, is going to have huge ramifications and something we should avoid. It completely changes the dynamics of Elrond and the Numenoreans in exile. Elrond is no longer the oldest member and protect of the family, it is now Celegorm's sister. The connection to her would just be strong. Whilst Elrond is not a direct ancestor, Celegorm's sister would be. I think Tolkien intentionally had no surviving ancestors for this reason. The Kings of Gondor, the kings or Arnor and even the Numenorean kings are going to hold their ancestress in high honour and take her counsel.