Session 4.04 & 4.05 - Overarching Storylines

[Faelivrin]

Yeah, no Elmo.

Call me unromantic, but my idea of love at first sight is that it usually isn't as instantaneous as Thingol and Melian. That is, I would expect them to have a conversation and some telepathic exchange before it happens.

I still would rather not do Galadriel telling all.
But if we do Amysrevenge idea we absolutely should not convey that Galadriel is knowingly or deliberately betraying Fingolfin and Fingon. Accidentally revealing more than she intended during an unexpectedly deep and thorough telepathic contact, or revealing it when she knows for certain that Celeborn won't tell anyone, would be much preferrable.

 

[amysrevenge]

revealing it when she knows for certain that Celeborn won't tell anyone,

This is where I am at with this. They both know that the best course forward for the joint G/C unit (and also for the joint Noldor/Sindar community as a whole) is for Thingol to not find out in this way at this time.

The time will come where they will figure out a way to introduce the subject - maybe they even work explicitly on crafting a plan for how to introduce the idea to the Sindar in the least overall harmful way possible (maybe emphasizing the role Morgoth played in the leadup), but then it's all spoiled before that plan comes to fruition (and the story comes out in almost the worst way it possibly could have).

 

[Ange1e4e5]

How about this: The Noldor tell Thingol that Finwe is dead, Morgoth killed him, destroyed the Trees and took the Silmarils, and they’re in Beleriand to avenge Finwe and get the Silmarils back. That’s the “official” story.

 

[Faelivrin]

But that would eliminate the canon conversation where Melian wheedles out of Galadriel the truth about Finwe and the Silmarils.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

But that would eliminate the canon conversation where Melian wheedles out of Galadriel the truth about Finwe and the Silmarils.

That happens next, the one I suggest would be told by those with Fingolfin.

 

[MithLuin]

Yes there are going to be different versions of the 'official' story. The truth will come out piecemeal.

First version:
The Sindar and Noldor meet, and the Noldor have to give a reason for being back in Middle Earth. They very much say, hey, we came back to help you fight Morgoth. He's awful, common enemy, let's work together against him. The Sindar might (for the most part) accept this at face value, and some of them even think that the Valar have sent the Noldor to help them fight Morgoth. The Sindar know *nothing* of what has happened in Valinor. Fingolfin probably wants to keep it that way, if he has any hope of maintaining peace between the Sindar and all the branches of the Noldor (including the Fëanoreans) that he has recently become High King of.

Second version: Rumor Mill
Over time, the Sindar learn more of the story - about the Darkening of Valinor, about Morgoth's attack on the Trees and Finwë. About the existence of the Silmarils. Galadriel is the main source of this info reaching Thingol, though by now the Sindar are likely starting to speculate about all the stuff the Noldor are refusing to talk about, and Sauron/Thuringwethil are doing their best to stir up distrust and coming up with their own versions of the stories (bad, but not as bad as the truth). Perhaps they are saying that the Noldor came back to conquer Beleriand and make the Sindar their slaves (or something). Fingolfin would do his best to shut down the rumors, maintain the party line and the strict insistence that no one talk about this. And he would draw on the unrest of the Noldor as his own personal guide as to how *not* to solve this problem. Somewhere in the midst of all of this, Finrod and his siblings have a meeting to discuss their approach to damage control - they are the ones with the most access to Thingol, and are very much the go-betweens. They seemingly agree not to tell.

Finally: The truth comes out.
Thingol's ultimate source of the story is Angrod, who is past done with protecting the Fëanoreans by hiding their crimes. His own mother was killed at Alqualondë, and he has reason to make the distinction between the rebellious Noldor who did not take part...and the Kinslayers. We will need to have some particular incident or event incite Angrod to spill the beans. Certainly, if Thingol has heard enough to know that Olwë was killed at Alqualondë, he could accuse Angrod of being a kinslayer and it could come out that way. But then...how does Thingol find out about Olwë's death? Does he dream about it, or what?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Maybe Thingol asks about the ships?

 

[Faelivrin]

I agree with your analysis Marie, with 2 quibbles:
And some brainstorming:

I don't think Tolkien specified when the Sindar first learned that the Two Trees were killed. It might have come out earlier than Galadriel's conversation with Melian. In fact I was assuming it did because it gives the Noldor an innocent reason to go after Morgoth and not live in Aman anymore. Killing Finwe could have been an innocent reason too, but nobody knew until Melian got it out of Galadriel. My reasoning for Angrod hiding Finwe's death from Thingol during his first visit is that he doesn't want to go into the unresolved succession crisis, he's trying to represent himself as the ambassador of all the Noldor, because "ambassador of Finrod, nephew of Fingolfin, who might or might not be the King of some of the Noldor, or maybe all of them, ask next decade" is a less useful position to be in. And then the feud would come up and... it wouldn't be such a safe discussion.

I don't know if that's the reason Tolkien wrote it that way. I mean, hypothetically if Finwe was alive either he would come with and Thingol would want to visit and catch up, or else if they left Finwe behind Thingol would still want to know who the acting king in Middle-earth is. How does Angrod answer that one? Or the "How is my old friend Finwe" question?

Now I wonder if Angrod is sent as Finrod's Ambassador, specifically to be able to say "Our High King has not yet prepared an ambassador to send you."

Finally: The truth comes out.
Thingol's ultimate source of the story is Angrod, who is past done with protecting the Fëanoreans by hiding their crimes. His own mother was killed at Alqualondë, and he has reason to make the distinction between the rebellious Noldor who did not take part...and the Kinslayers. We will need to have some particular incident or event incite Angrod to spill the beans. Certainly, if Thingol has heard enough to know that Olwë was killed at Alqualondë, he could accuse Angrod of being a kinslayer and it could come out that way. But then...how does Thingol find out about Olwë's death? Does he dream about it, or what?

I'm not sure what you meant by ultimate. Final? Angrod sorts out the truth from the rumors, but I think it's significant that he only does so after Thingol has already learned the Kinslaying happened, from the rumors.

Does Thingol know about Olwe specifically? Do you think he should? In the book he knows about the Kinslaying in general (no victims were named by Tolkien) and accuses the sons of Earwen of murdering the Teleri in general. Which is what incites Angrod to clarify the truth, to defend his own house. And he gets angry and speaks bitterly against the Sons of Feanor... partly thanks to Caranthir's earlier behavior, but also because nobody innocent likes being accused of mass-murder. It's possible that Angrod will mention his mother and grandfather's deaths in the context of accusing the Feanorians of murder. It could also be something the spies learned from eavesdropping on Noldor. A dream would be plausible I guess, if it happened after he heard the rumors about the Kinslaying. But he hears the rumors at the time the Finarfinians are visiting Doriath, so I'd rather it be a waking vision than taking a scene to show Thingol and Melian asleep in bed.

 

[Haakon]

I don’t have the text at hand but as I recall it, Círdan acted on the rumours and sent a messenger to Thingol, and that messenger arrived while the sons of Finarfin (well, and Galadriel) were visiting Doriath. Thingol accused the visiting Noldor and Angrod burst out in accusations against the sons of Fëanor in turn.
I think that a reason for Círdan to send the messenger (though the text doesn’t specify) would be that the rumours make him understand not only about the Kinslaying but also specifically that Olwë was killed. This would also really make Thingol’s anger extra understandable.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I don’t have the text at hand but as I recall it, Círdan acted on the rumours and sent a messenger to Thingol, and that messenger arrived while the sons of Finarfin (well, and Galadriel) were visiting Doriath. Thingol accused the visiting Noldor and Angrod burst out in accusations against the sons of Fëanor in turn.
I think that a reason for Círdan to send the messenger (though the text doesn’t specify) would be that the rumours make him understand not only about the Kinslaying but also specifically that Olwë was killed. This would also really make Thingol’s anger extra understandable.

They also know about the burned ships, right? Would Thingol think that Olwe would give them up? Or the fact that Olwe wouldn’t give up the ships so easily would, in Thingol’s mind, point to something else wrong with the Noldor’s story?...

 

[Faelivrin]

You mean the Sindar would notice a gap in the Noldorin official story and wonder,

"They came on Telerin ships from Olwe, but no Teleri came with them, why?"

And for how long would the Sindar mistakenly believe that Orcs had chased them from the ships and burnt them?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

You mean the Sindar would notice a gap in the Noldorin official story and wonder,

"They came on Telerin ships from Olwe, but no Teleri came with them, why?"

And for how long would the Sindar mistakenly believe that Orcs had chased them from the ships and burnt them?

Yes, or have Thingol ask about Olwe and a non-committal reply is given.

 

[amysrevenge]

And for how long would the Sindar mistakenly believe that Orcs had chased them from the ships and burnt them?

Until the first time they actually observe the ease with which the Noldor can dispatch Orcs, I'd imagine.

 

[Haakon]

I’m not sure if I’m unclear or if you just choose to disregard my main point. The point was that Círdan sends a messenger to Thingol, and he should have a really good reason to do so. He reacts to the rumours, not in general but to something specific. Yes, it should be about the ships, definitely, I agree, but as you say: Olwë is so tightly connected with the ships so Círdan would not accept ships without Teleri unless he’s given a very good reason. Therefore the death of Olwë should be part of the message sent to Doriath at this point. Sorry if I wasn’t making myself clear.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

How would Cirdan know that Olwe was killed apart from the Teleri ships minus Teleri? There isn’t an easy way to communicate with Valinor, is there?

 

[Faelivrin]

Until the first time they actually observe the ease with which the Noldor can dispatch Orcs, I'd imagine.

Good point...

If the Orcs set them aflame with fire arrows, and the Elves all jumped overboard and then went on shore and killed the Orcs...
But yeah, either way it's another gap in their story.

Edit: Haakon I didn't understand your point, sorry. I had always imagined that Cirdan acted on the rumors as soon as they reached him. But I don't have a problem with the rumors including Olwe's death. It doesn't even have to be something the spies learned in truth, it might have been "made up" along with the lies the rumors contained (like the Finarfinians joining the Kinslaying). But it just so happened this "lie" was true.

 

[Haakon]

I’m talking about what Círdan learns from the rumours and the conclusions he draws, which have to be such that Thingol lashes out at Angrod and makes him tell the whole story.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

So perhaps Sauron and Thuringwethil attend the Feast switching back and forth as Sindar/Noldor, hear some of what Cirdan has concluded, mixed in with the worst they hear about the Noldor, and some more he makes up himself to make the rumors that Thingol confronts the Finarfinnians about. He is called Sauron the Deciever, if only in half-truths so far.

 

[Haakon]

You don’t have to be much of a deceiver if you manage to find a few Noldor who talk amongst themselves about the things that they don’t want to tell the Sindar about, just mingle acting as Noldor. Then Sauron doesn’t have to lie that much, just give a select number of Sindar some pieces of the puzzle, after which it doesn’t take the wisdom of Círdan to get a clear picture of what has happened. What Círdan doesn’t have is clear evidence, but he should have enough of a coherent story to alert Thingol.

 

[amysrevenge]

You don’t have to be much of a deceiver if you manage to find a few Noldor who talk amongst themselves about the things that they don’t want to tell the Sindar about, just mingle acting as Noldor. Then Sauron doesn’t have to lie that much, just give a select number of Sindar some pieces of the puzzle, after which it doesn’t take the wisdom of Círdan to get a clear picture of what has happened. What Círdan doesn’t have is clear evidence, but he should have enough of a coherent story to alert Thingol.

Haha the best lie is 99% truth. The more we talk about this for Sauron, the more I looove it.