Indeed... and when it so neatly fills in all those holes and gaps in the "official story"...
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Session 4.04 & 4.05 - Overarching Storylines
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
I think my absolute favourite thing about the whole bit is eventually Sauron finds out the whole story of what happened and goes "holy **** they did WHAT?"
Morgoth is going to laugh so hard.
How much can we show them or the doppelgangers finding out before the Feast, or after it? Will we have any opportunities outside the Feast to show the spying?
The reason I ask is that it seems more plausible for them to learn gradually, and for very little of the Kinslaying to be whispered at the feast. (Granted, Noldor can talk in plain sight using Quenya, but for that we’d need actual Quenya dialogue and subtitles.)
How much can we show them or the doppelgangers finding out before the Feast, or after it? Will we have any opportunities outside the Feast to show the spying?
The reason I ask is that it seems more plausible for them to learn gradually, and for very little of the Kinslaying to be whispered at the feast. (Granted, Noldor can talk in plain sight using Quenya, but for that we’d need actual Quenya dialogue and subtitles.)
I think that a number of Sindar could have arrived before the feast to help add to decorations and preparations? They’d be servants or similar and move around doing stuff the Noldor nobles won’t really bother about. One or two artisans could be Sauron and Thuringwethil. Would we have to use subtitles for such situations? In any case, before the feast, the Noldor will not be as cautious as when the Sindar guests have arrived.
Or would they act as known characters?
Or would they act as known characters?
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
My thought was that they would be nameless characters and do a lot of listening, unless we have a known character or two that Sauron and Thuringwethil kill to impersonate.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Where are the Noldor stationed up to the Mereth Aderthad?
Okay, so the progression is....
The Sindar and Noldor meet. The 'official story' is that the Noldor have come to Middle Earth to fight Morgoth, and isn't that fortuitous. The Noldor are suspiciously tight-lipped about what is happening back in Valinor, and Fingolfin (as new High King) reinforces the 'nobody talk about it' idea. The House of Finarfin, which has the most direct contact with the Sindar, agree to this course of action.
Which is all well and good, until the Sindar start asking questions. About the Valar, and Valinor...and most importantly the Teleri. They want to know what their sundered kin have been up to, how they are. The Noldor talk about the swan-haven of Alqualondë, but fail to mention anything recent in their tales. Círdan has some unanswered questions about the burned ships he discovered, and wants to know why no Teleri came on the Teleri ships. Were they killed? What happened? Thingol asks after his brother Olwë, particularly when he learns that some of the returning Noldor are his kin. The Noldor...don't want to talk about it. Suspicions are raised.
Since the Noldor aren't talking, the Sindar begin speculating as to what happened, trying to fill in the gaps themselves. Rumors start spreading. At the Mereth Aderthad, which is attended by both Sindar and Noldor (but few Fëanoreans), Sauron and Thuringwethil mingle with the guests in disguise, listening, feeding suspicions, and starting a few rumors of their own. Still, no one, not even Sauron, imagines what is *actually* behind the Noldor's reluctant silence. Galadriel and Celeborn have a candid conversation, in which *some* of her grief at losing her mother when they left Valinor comes out, and possibly the entire secret of the Kinslaying. Celeborn does *not* share her confidence with any of the other Sindar.
Finrod talks to his siblings about what they are going to do. The Sindar are asking questions, and the truth is going to come out at some point. It is both difficult and unpleasant to pretend that their mother is alive and well back in Valinor with their father. He wants to follow Fingolfin's lead, but dislikes dishonesty. He's not convinced that the secret will hold, but he and his siblings agree not to tell.
Galadriel tells Melian about the Darkening of Valinor, the Silmarils, and the death of Finwë. She stops short of revealing the Kinslaying. Melian reports what she has heard to Thingol, who is sad to hear that news, but not overly concerned by it. He already knew Morgoth was evil and a threat.
Círdan hears rumors that point to Olwë's death. He concludes that the burned ships he saw were stolen by the Noldor, and reports his suspicions to Thingol. Thingol confronts Angrod (who is visiting Doriath as ambassador) and accusing him of being a kinslayer. Angered, Angrod repudiates the accusation, and reveals the truth of what did happen, laying the blame on the Fëanoreans. (He likely does not reveal that Fingolfin and Fingon took part, though wouldn't necessarily deny that if directly asked.)
Thingol bans Quenya as the language of unrepentant kinslayers. Fingolfin accepts this, and the Noldor adopt Sindarin in their daily speech.
The Sindar and Noldor meet. The 'official story' is that the Noldor have come to Middle Earth to fight Morgoth, and isn't that fortuitous. The Noldor are suspiciously tight-lipped about what is happening back in Valinor, and Fingolfin (as new High King) reinforces the 'nobody talk about it' idea. The House of Finarfin, which has the most direct contact with the Sindar, agree to this course of action.
Which is all well and good, until the Sindar start asking questions. About the Valar, and Valinor...and most importantly the Teleri. They want to know what their sundered kin have been up to, how they are. The Noldor talk about the swan-haven of Alqualondë, but fail to mention anything recent in their tales. Círdan has some unanswered questions about the burned ships he discovered, and wants to know why no Teleri came on the Teleri ships. Were they killed? What happened? Thingol asks after his brother Olwë, particularly when he learns that some of the returning Noldor are his kin. The Noldor...don't want to talk about it. Suspicions are raised.
Since the Noldor aren't talking, the Sindar begin speculating as to what happened, trying to fill in the gaps themselves. Rumors start spreading. At the Mereth Aderthad, which is attended by both Sindar and Noldor (but few Fëanoreans), Sauron and Thuringwethil mingle with the guests in disguise, listening, feeding suspicions, and starting a few rumors of their own. Still, no one, not even Sauron, imagines what is *actually* behind the Noldor's reluctant silence. Galadriel and Celeborn have a candid conversation, in which *some* of her grief at losing her mother when they left Valinor comes out, and possibly the entire secret of the Kinslaying. Celeborn does *not* share her confidence with any of the other Sindar.
Finrod talks to his siblings about what they are going to do. The Sindar are asking questions, and the truth is going to come out at some point. It is both difficult and unpleasant to pretend that their mother is alive and well back in Valinor with their father. He wants to follow Fingolfin's lead, but dislikes dishonesty. He's not convinced that the secret will hold, but he and his siblings agree not to tell.
Galadriel tells Melian about the Darkening of Valinor, the Silmarils, and the death of Finwë. She stops short of revealing the Kinslaying. Melian reports what she has heard to Thingol, who is sad to hear that news, but not overly concerned by it. He already knew Morgoth was evil and a threat.
Círdan hears rumors that point to Olwë's death. He concludes that the burned ships he saw were stolen by the Noldor, and reports his suspicions to Thingol. Thingol confronts Angrod (who is visiting Doriath as ambassador) and accusing him of being a kinslayer. Angered, Angrod repudiates the accusation, and reveals the truth of what did happen, laying the blame on the Fëanoreans. (He likely does not reveal that Fingolfin and Fingon took part, though wouldn't necessarily deny that if directly asked.)
Thingol bans Quenya as the language of unrepentant kinslayers. Fingolfin accepts this, and the Noldor adopt Sindarin in their daily speech.
Somehow Thingol does find out that Fingon was involved, at least in the book. Angrod isn't likely to accuse Fingolfin and Fingon, but if Melian asks point blank "can you swear that none of Fingolfin's house was part of it?" he can't lie to her. She can probably detect lies.
MithLuin, you think that they would not mention the death of the Two Trees in their "official" story?
MithLuin, you think that they would not mention the death of the Two Trees in their "official" story?
Apparently, they are not mentioning the death of Finwë in their initial story....which suggests that there *is* no actual story about what happened over there beyond them refusing to speak of it.
So, while there is certainly no harm in mentioning Morgoth and Ungoliant's attack on the Two Trees and it is going to come up eventually...I doubt they volunteer that information up front. The only Sindar who have seen the Two Trees are Thingol (and Melian, of course), so I'm not sure that part of the story would even really register to them. The Sun and the Moon rising is much bigger news in Beleriand.
So, while there is certainly no harm in mentioning Morgoth and Ungoliant's attack on the Two Trees and it is going to come up eventually...I doubt they volunteer that information up front. The only Sindar who have seen the Two Trees are Thingol (and Melian, of course), so I'm not sure that part of the story would even really register to them. The Sun and the Moon rising is much bigger news in Beleriand.
Turgon is in Nevrast, and is going to host the Feast. Fingolfin and Fingon are in Hithlum/Mithrim region. I dunno where Finrod is at the moment...(he builds Minas Tirith soon after the Feast, but not yet). Angrod and Aegnor are in Ard-Galen and/or Dorthonion at this point (probably Dorthonion, then Ard-Galen after the Dagor Aglareb when the Siege is established). Orodreth is likely with Finrod, though he could be with Angrod. Galadriel is in Doriath. The Sons of Fëanor are all in East Beleriand, I would think.
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It has occurred to me that the model you are suggesting for love-at-first-sight between Celeborn and Galadriel is similar to the meeting of Jen and Kira in The Dark Crystal. They are 'dream-fasted' and share their memories the instant their hands touch. It's interactive, but not under their control - it just happens, and suddenly they know one another quite well.
(They meet each other right after the jump-scare 1 minute into this scene.)
I strongly doubt Galadriel was already living in Doriath before the Feast of Reuniting in year 20. She and Finrod were still probably living in the vicinity of their siblings. I would rather not send her to Doriath before the Feast.
Edit: It appears in the Simarillon that at the time Finrod started building Nargothrond, Galadriel first moved to Doriath and stayed there. Given the timeline rearrangement we won't necesarily be able to do that, but it does show that she wasn't yet there at the time of Mereth Aderthad.
Uncontrolled telepathic melding seems like something Galadriel could cause accidentally, if she hasn't yet fully learned to control her power. It's a bit out of keeping with how the Noldor are depicted having already reached the apex of their skills in Valinor... it is plausible otherwise, though.
This is all I can get from the Silmarillion: "And at times Melian and Galadriel would speak together of Valinor and the bliss of old; but beyond the dark hour of the death of the Trees Galadriel would not go, but ever fell silent."
So, no indication of when she finally mentioned the Darkening. Perhaps it first comes up when Melian and Galadriel discuss Valinor.
Edit: It appears in the Simarillon that at the time Finrod started building Nargothrond, Galadriel first moved to Doriath and stayed there. Given the timeline rearrangement we won't necesarily be able to do that, but it does show that she wasn't yet there at the time of Mereth Aderthad.
Uncontrolled telepathic melding seems like something Galadriel could cause accidentally, if she hasn't yet fully learned to control her power. It's a bit out of keeping with how the Noldor are depicted having already reached the apex of their skills in Valinor... it is plausible otherwise, though.
So they judge that the safest thing is just not discuss anything that happened in Valinor?
This is all I can get from the Silmarillion: "And at times Melian and Galadriel would speak together of Valinor and the bliss of old; but beyond the dark hour of the death of the Trees Galadriel would not go, but ever fell silent."
So, no indication of when she finally mentioned the Darkening. Perhaps it first comes up when Melian and Galadriel discuss Valinor.
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Yes this was my point, thank you.
Ah thank you, I was messing things up... The point would be to have Sauron act as someone people around him don’t know and belonging to a group that some Noldoli nobles don’t know very well, som that two conditions are met: people could feel free to talk (but of course not too freely), while not actually knowing that they’re not overheard by someone who shouldn’t hear. I’m also a bit reluctant to have them listening during the party; what would be said about the Kinslaying during the feast?
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Maybe one of the Fingolfinians and one of the Feanorians have a short words about not talking about the issue.Or rather i mean two fingolfinians talk about the Feanorians and not mentioning the kinslaying to cirdan or Thingol?
I like the idea that they're sepecially listening while the Noldorin servants are setting up the Feast.
The thing is though, it would be understood not to talk about Kinslaying around Sindar. Nobody would need to remind anyone not to talk about it. That's why I ask whether we can have the spies learn about the worst stuff (the Kinslaying) in another episode before or after the Feast. At the Feast itself (during the Noldor-only set up) they would be overhearing more details, but not the biggest stuff.
The thing is though, it would be understood not to talk about Kinslaying around Sindar. Nobody would need to remind anyone not to talk about it. That's why I ask whether we can have the spies learn about the worst stuff (the Kinslaying) in another episode before or after the Feast. At the Feast itself (during the Noldor-only set up) they would be overhearing more details, but not the biggest stuff.
I think for this sort of thing it may be more effective to have dopplegangers asking innocent questions and then even skimming the surface thoughts while people have their mouths open and their defenses down. Torture somebody and their mind clams up against telepathy. But get them talking when they feel safe and... ooh, the crap they let out! Not necessarily military secrets, or craft secrets, but things everybody and their dog knows.
How about this:
Episode 5:
The Noldor as they set up the party are asking each other (or asking their princes) "The Sindar keep asking about Valinor and the Teleri. It's getting harder to fob them off with no answers. What are we supposed to say?" Bits and pieces get discussed among them. The Sindar do, indeed, ask probing questions during the Feast. Maybe to shut them up, somebody finally says the Trees were killed, and we don't want to talk about it. Sauron and Thuringwethil listen in to all of this before and during the Feast (disguised as Noldorin servants). They learn many parts of the truth, but not all of it. Yet they can guess a lot of what goes unsaid and discuss it among themselves afterwards.
Episode 6:
More and more Sindar question the gaps in the official story, after getting no answers even at the Feast. Meanwhile, the spies are among the Noldor when they're by themselves (disguised as Noldor, or invisible/unclad). Sauron learns the whole entire truth: the Kinslaying, the burnt ships, Olwe and Earwen, everything. Spies start planting rumors among the Sindar (disguised as Sindar). Throughout the episode the rumors are spreading and getting worse.
When should the Finarfin family meeting about damage control happen? Before or after the Feast?
How about this:
Episode 5:
The Noldor as they set up the party are asking each other (or asking their princes) "The Sindar keep asking about Valinor and the Teleri. It's getting harder to fob them off with no answers. What are we supposed to say?" Bits and pieces get discussed among them. The Sindar do, indeed, ask probing questions during the Feast. Maybe to shut them up, somebody finally says the Trees were killed, and we don't want to talk about it. Sauron and Thuringwethil listen in to all of this before and during the Feast (disguised as Noldorin servants). They learn many parts of the truth, but not all of it. Yet they can guess a lot of what goes unsaid and discuss it among themselves afterwards.
Episode 6:
More and more Sindar question the gaps in the official story, after getting no answers even at the Feast. Meanwhile, the spies are among the Noldor when they're by themselves (disguised as Noldor, or invisible/unclad). Sauron learns the whole entire truth: the Kinslaying, the burnt ships, Olwe and Earwen, everything. Spies start planting rumors among the Sindar (disguised as Sindar). Throughout the episode the rumors are spreading and getting worse.
When should the Finarfin family meeting about damage control happen? Before or after the Feast?