Session 4.06 - Overarching Storylines, Continued

MithLuin

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For next time:

  • Noldor/Dwarvish relations
    • Caranthir establishing his trade relationship with the dwarves.
    • The hunting of the Petty-dwarves
  • Eöl
  • Villain storyline?
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Suggested by Nick which Corey seems to like: Azaghal is played by the same actor when reborn as a new Dwarf, showing he's indeed the same Father reborn again and again. But Mim the Last is played by a different actor from Mim the First... showing he's only a namesake, not a reincarnation.

Also suggested: some of the exiles are innocent, they went into exile to be with their exiled relatives. In Dwarven law the family of a criminal isn't actually forced to leave, but voluntary Exile is still Exile regardless of reason, and there is no right of return even for children born in exile. So some of the Petty-Dwarves are innocent.

Crimes suggested for exile: murder, arms-dealing to Orcs. Exile is an ongoing process, not something that happened once in the past.

Dwarves are more prone to murder than Elves because Aule made some mistakes... making them stubborn, fierce, and impossible to dominate had unintended side-effects..... oops. Dwarves have blind-spots that Elves and Men lack. So do Ents and maybe even Eagles.

We don't necessarily want to use the word "Petty-Dwarves" on screen, since "petty" has changed in meaning since Tolkien's time. But whatever we call them, if it's a derogatory name it should be shown in a context where it's clear that it's a racist and bad thing to call them. That is, the perspective of the person calling them that should be clearly separated from the "narrator" perspective.



A last-minute suggestion of mine, post-podcast: Mim the First is perhaps a brother of a murderer, not himself guilty but choosing exile out of love for his sibling. He is made the first King of the [Petty-Dwarves] in Nulukkizdin. His impassioned speech to the Dwarves of Belegost to leave his people alone is actually awesome.

Edit: Once somebody ... Haerangil or Ange1? suggested that there are exiles from other clans further east. Does that mean there are potentially, other clans of exiles, like the Petty-Dwarves, but established in out-of-the-way places? They don't come up in Tolkien's narratives but... similar groups could potentially exist out east, too.
 
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Haerangil

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Somehow i doubt that the dwarves would tell anyone details about the pds crimes... but i like the rest!

Maybe there could be other groups of "wicked dwarves" who were exiled for the same or similar reasons... but if so they do not appear in the story (MERP roleplaying game had clans similar and closely akin to the petty dwarves live in the grey mts, in the misty mountains northeast of rivendell , in rhudaur and on eryn vorn - it worked for the rpg)
 

MithLuin

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Yes, the natural secrecy of the dwarves makes it very difficult for anyone to find out anything about them!
 

cellardur

Active Member
I don't think we should hide away from difficult questions. The Sindar are clearly racist towards men on a whole. In the 2nd Age we are going to have to deal with the Numenoreans racist and colonist policies. As Cory said, being admirable in many ways, does not mean you don't have faults. I hope we don't strive for a very unfair and untrue criticism of Tolkien by making his good guys completely white and his villians completely black.

Tolkien gives us a Noldor who is loved by the dwarves and wins their friendship and that is Curufin. Caranthir has dealings with them, but Curufin is the one they love. This will fit in well when we get Celebrimbor in the 3rd Age too. This should be the special friendship we see and Celebrimbor can go along with his father.
 

MithLuin

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In Session 4.07, it was determined that the meeting of the Dwarves and the Fëanoreans would include both Curufin and Caranthir. Caranthir sees the lucrative potential, but as you point out, Curufin is the one who appreciates their craftsmanship and is viewed by the Dwarves as a fellow craftsman.

Caranthir gets a toll road; Curufin gets Angrist.


The Dwarves also love Finrod and name him Felagund.
 

cellardur

Active Member
In Session 4.07, it was determined that the meeting of the Dwarves and the Fëanoreans would include both Curufin and Caranthir. Caranthir sees the lucrative potential, but as you point out, Curufin is the one who appreciates their craftsmanship and is viewed by the Dwarves as a fellow craftsman.

Caranthir gets a toll road; Curufin gets Angrist.


The Dwarves also love Finrod and name him Felagund.
I thought I was up to date, but have just finished listening to 4.06. I have yet to listen to 4.07.

Curufin is the only of the Noldor mentioned as winning the friendship of the dwarves and learning their language. Just, because he does bad things, we don't have to make him completely evil. The Sons of Feanor are all very generous and friendly with Non-Elves and sometimes to their detriment.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I thought I was up to date, but have just finished listening to 4.06. I have yet to listen to 4.07.

Curufin is the only of the Noldor mentioned as winning the friendship of the dwarves and learning their language. Just, because he does bad things, we don't have to make him completely evil. The Sons of Feanor are all very generous and friendly with Non-Elves and sometimes to their detriment.
None of the Noldor will be completely evil. It's just that Celegorm and Curufin are amongst the more heinous of the lot, what with conspiring to have Finrod killed in Sauron's dungeons and Celegorm trying to rape Luthien. Plus, Curufin had to have loved someone at some point, or he would not have married and we would not have Celebrimbor.
 

cellardur

Active Member
None of the Noldor will be completely evil. It's just that Celegorm and Curufin are amongst the more heinous of the lot, what with conspiring to have Finrod killed in Sauron's dungeons and Celegorm trying to rape Luthien. Plus, Curufin had to have loved someone at some point, or he would not have married and we would not have Celebrimbor.
Yes, but at the same time these two also have very notable qualities that I don't feel are being stressed I could be wrong. Celegorm wins the love of Orome and Huan. We have seen what sort of dog Huan is and it says a lot that Celegorm can win his love. Yes he falls very low, but he did have this high point. Feanor loved his father more than anyone else or anything else in Arda. Curufin is a mini-replica of his father, but the love between the two of them has not really been played out.

Again Curufin is marked out especially for winning the friendship of the dwarves and learning their language.

With few exceptions like Finrod and Glorfindel all of the Noldor are a very flawed bunch, but they still have their bright spots.

I might be wrong, but I thought it was the Sindar who hunted and NAMED the petty dwarves.

There are very few examples of the Noldor looking down on other races. This is mostly a Sindar thing.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
The Sindar hunting the Petty-Dwarves (which isn't happening in SilmFilm) was a pretty unique circumstance: the Petty-Dwarves ambushed and attacked Elves. The Elves were unaware Dwarves existed, and never got a good look at them, so they misidentified them as man-eating animals and shot them. As soon as they met other (friendlier) Dwarves and realized the 'man-eating animals' were people, they stopped hunting them.

The Sindar as a whole show more racism towards Mortals than most Noldor, though, for certain. (Celegorm and Curufin excepted). And the Sindar just. can't. get over their later hatred of the Dwarves, unlike the Noldor who befriend the Longbeards in the Second Age.
 

cellardur

Active Member
The Sindar hunting the Petty-Dwarves (which isn't happening in SilmFilm) was a pretty unique circumstance: the Petty-Dwarves ambushed and attacked Elves. The Elves were unaware Dwarves existed, and never got a good look at them, so they misidentified them as man-eating animals and shot them. As soon as they met other (friendlier) Dwarves and realized the 'man-eating animals' were people, they stopped hunting them.

The Sindar as a whole show more racism towards Mortals than most Noldor, though, for certain. (Celegorm and Curufin excepted). And the Sindar just. can't. get over their later hatred of the Dwarves, unlike the Noldor who befriend the Longbeards in the Second Age.
I am not sure Curufin hates mortals. As mentioned he is the only of the Noldor noted to have become friends with dwarves. Celegorm and Curufin hate Beren for obvious reasons, but I can't remember them speaking down to others.

The Noldor seem to have this fascination with the world and in general want to know more about it. They are curious for new lands and new people. They may have different interest, but it seems to apply to many of them.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I dunno about "hates" Mortals in general. But looking down on them as inferior, yes I think so. In fact I think that's a fairly common opinion among Feanorians. Andreth complained to Finrod that many Elves do so, and she would have interacted mostly with Noldor rather than Sindar. (Edit: Granted, her personal situation may have led her to overestimate how common prejudice was. But Finrod did admit it happened.) We see some Feanorians being more friendly towards Mortals, of course, but there's also a comment by Tolkien about the Sons of Feanor's general "unfriendliness" towared Men. And friendliness isn't incompatible with less-strong prejudice.
 
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MithLuin

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Feanor himself warned that mortals would usurp the place of the elves in Middle-earth when he talked the Noldor into their rebellion. Mortals are named in the Oath as part of the list of who they are willing to fight for a silmaril. So, there is a negative connotation before they even meet them.

The Noldor do befriend the Edain, it's true, but look at the way that plays out. Finrod meets and befriends Beor, whose descendants live in Dorthonian with Finrod's brothers. The House of Hador is united with Fingolfin and Fingon in Dor-lomin. And...Haleth turns down Caranthir's offer and moves to Brethil. The Feanoreans don't really befriend Mortals until the Easterlings show up, which makes them rather late to the party.

So, yes, despite them having the lands of East Beleriand that the Edain have to walk through to get to West Beleriand, the Feanoreans don't establish any close friendship or connection with them. This implies a certain amount of coolness and disinterest. I don't think this means they dislike them; merely that they would see them as short-lived and not particularly useful.
 

amysrevenge

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Mortals are named in the Oath as part of the list of who they are willing to fight for a silmaril.
Soooo maybe this is just the gamer/rules lawyer in me yearning to break free, but...

"Man yet unborn upon Middle-earth,"

Nothing in there about Man after he's been born. Only unborn Man will be fought for a silmaril.

Hahahahahahaha that's so stupid but I couldn't resist.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Soooo maybe this is just the gamer/rules lawyer in me yearning to break free, but...

"Man yet unborn upon Middle-earth,"

Nothing in there about Man after he's been born. Only unborn Man will be fought for a silmaril.

Hahahahahahaha that's so stupid but I couldn't resist.
Well, all Men were unborn at that point since the Sun had not yet risen.
 

cellardur

Active Member
Feanor himself warned that mortals would usurp the place of the elves in Middle-earth when he talked the Noldor into their rebellion. Mortals are named in the Oath as part of the list of who they are willing to fight for a silmaril. So, there is a negative connotation before they even meet them.
Yes this was a rumour spread in Valinor, but when they go ME it really does not pan out like that.
The Noldor do befriend the Edain, it's true, but look at the way that plays out. Finrod meets and befriends Beor, whose descendants live in Dorthonian with Finrod's brothers. The House of Hador is united with Fingolfin and Fingon in Dor-lomin. And...Haleth turns down Caranthir's offer and moves to Brethil. The Feanoreans don't really befriend Mortals until the Easterlings show up, which makes them rather late to the party.
Well Caranthir made a real effort with Haleth. I mean this is the most courteous and polite he is to anyone.

Then Caranthir looked kindly upon Men and did Haleth great honour; and he offered her recompense for her father and brother. And seeing, over late, what valour there was in the Edain, he said to her: 'If you will remove and dwell further north, there you shall have the friendship and protection of the Eldar, and free lands of your own.'

On the other hand Caranthir seems to look down on everyone else from the Sindar to dwarves and even the Sons of Finarfin. Men are pretty much the only people he doesn't hate or look down upon.
So, yes, despite them having the lands of East Beleriand that the Edain have to walk through to get to West Beleriand, the Feanoreans don't establish any close friendship or connection with them. This implies a certain amount of coolness and disinterest. I don't think this means they dislike them; merely that they would see them as short-lived and not particularly useful.
As mentioned when Caranthir meets them he tries, but the Men are keen to go further into the West. We never see Caranthir treat anyone with such respect.

Look at the way he speaks about even Thingol.

'Yea more! Let not the sons of Finarfin run hither and thither with their tales to this Dark Elf in his caves! Who made them our spokesmen to deal with him? And though they be come indeed to Beleriand, let them not so swiftly forget that their father is a lord of the Noldor, though their mother be of other kin.'

Or what he thinks of dwarves:

And thus it was that Caranthir's people came upon the Dwarves, who after the onslaught of Morgoth and the coming of the Noldor had ceased their traffic into Beleriand. But though either people loved skill and were eager to learn, no great love was there between them; for the Dwarves were secret and quick to resentment, and Caranthir was haughty and scarce concealed his scorn for the unloveliness of the Naugrim, and his people followed their lord.

Of course Caranthir is an exception and seems to dislike most people, but he makes a real effort with Haleth, which he doesn't for his own cousins or the dwarves who make him rich.

As for the oath, Feanor named everything he knew on the oath. It's precisely why the oath is so bad, he said he would fight the Valar, maiar, elf or man who tries to withhold Silmaril.
 

cellardur

Active Member
I dunno about "hates" Mortals in general. But looking down on them as inferior, yes I think so. In fact I think that's a fairly common opinion among Feanorians. Andreth complained to Finrod that many Elves do so, and she would have interacted mostly with Noldor rather than Sindar. (Edit: Granted, her personal situation may have led her to overestimate how common prejudice was. But Finrod did admit it happened.) We see some Feanorians being more friendly towards Mortals, of course, but there's also a comment by Tolkien about the Sons of Feanor's general "unfriendliness" towared Men. And friendliness isn't incompatible with less-strong prejudice.
I think this is a different issue. I think the Noldor in general looked down on Men, until they interacted with them and they tended to be amazed. However, the Noldor seem to have felt the Maiar and the Valar did the same to them. The Noldor as a whole liked taking the role as the older brother, teaching and being looked up to by the Younger Races, especially Men. In doing so they become friends with many Men they look up to.

Caranthir is not looking down on Haleth, he is looking at her as one of the Greats of ME. She has completely won his respect and admiration.
 

MithLuin

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I agree, Caranthir makes a real effort with Haleth and is clearly impressed by her...*after* he realizes that Men can fight Orcs. Haleth's people didn't just arrive. They've been in Thargelion, next-door neighbors to the Fëanoreans for awhile (FA 312-FA 375). And all evidence suggests that...the Fëanoreans left them alone. They at least seemed to make little effort to get to know them in that time. Granted, one can easily argue that 60 years is nothing to an elf, and maybe they just hadn't gotten around to greeting their neighbors yet. BUT...that doesn't exactly paint a picture of even curiosity about Men.

There's a reason Haleth is so cool in her response to Caranthir. There's very much a 'too little, too late' vibe to how she sees his attempts at courtesy at this point. Hence the...no thanks, we'll head to Estolad. (Estolad, of course, is also in East Beleriand, and the Men who lived there were invited into other lands by elves...just not by Fëanoreans outside of Caranthir's offer to Haleth.)
 

cellardur

Active Member
I agree, Caranthir makes a real effort with Haleth and is clearly impressed by her...*after* he realizes that Men can fight Orcs. Haleth's people didn't just arrive. They've been in Thargelion, next-door neighbors to the Fëanoreans for awhile (FA 312-FA 375). And all evidence suggests that...the Fëanoreans left them alone. They at least seemed to make little effort to get to know them in that time. Granted, one can easily argue that 60 years is nothing to an elf, and maybe they just hadn't gotten around to greeting their neighbors yet. BUT...that doesn't exactly paint a picture of even curiosity about Men.

There's a reason Haleth is so cool in her response to Caranthir. There's very much a 'too little, too late' vibe to how she sees his attempts at courtesy at this point. Hence the...no thanks, we'll head to Estolad. (Estolad, of course, is also in East Beleriand, and the Men who lived there were invited into other lands by elves...just not by Fëanoreans outside of Caranthir's offer to Haleth.)
I think with ALL of the Noldor with possible exeption of Finrod, they saw Men as cannon fodder to use in their war against Morgoth. Galadriel in the 2nd Age has the same idea about dwarves. In addition they liked lauding it over Men as I previously mentioned.

The Men of Haleth dwelt in Caranthir's lands and as you said he left them alone, but he was not hostile like the Green Elves. Caranthir is one of the most unpleasant Elves of the Noldor. Yet his reaction to the Men is to ignore them, he does not show them any of the haughtiness and disdain he shows the dwarves. Caranthir is also fairly exceptional in this aspect,

Curufin takes a keen interest in dwarves as does Galadriel, Finrod wants to learn more about Men (as we can assume does Aegnor). Fingolfin gives them an official 'Welcome to Beleriand.'

Haleth's rejection might have a 'too little too late', but the people of Haleth were very independent and valued their freedom. I think if the offer had been made immediately to become Vassals she would have rejected it. They very much wanted to find their own path and weren't as fascinated by the Elves as the House of Hador and Beor are.
 
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