Session 4.06 - Overarching Storylines, Continued

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I think it's important for Eol's character to preserve him as somebody who experienced peace and content in Beleriand before the Sun/Morgoth/Noldor came and ruined it all. The crater lake also needs some time to form (although maybe Eol causes it to fill with water somehow, maybe diverting a stream into the crater, to hide the ore from others? Would he have a way to get at the ore underneath?

Dwarves wouldn't go diving in water to get at ore. Grey-elves with little metalworking technology would be more interested in the lake itself than whatever was under it.

And there's no reason it has to be the first or only meteor. The Elves awakened a long time before.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I think it's important for Eol's character to preserve him as somebody who experienced peace and content in Beleriand before the Sun/Morgoth/Noldor came and ruined it all. The crater lake also needs some time to form (although maybe Eol causes it to fill with water somehow, maybe diverting a stream into the crater, to hide the ore from others? Would he have a way to get at the ore underneath?

Dwarves wouldn't go diving in water to get at ore. Grey-elves with little metalworking technology would be more interested in the lake itself than whatever was under it.

And there's no reason it has to be the first or only meteor. The Elves awakened a long time before.
Perhaps Eol digs a tunnel to access the metal? And, well, we don’t hear of any other impacts from meteorites.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Hiding the ore could be the heart of his "you can't leave without my permission" aura around Nan Elmoth. He doesn't want anyone sneaking in, but even more he doesn't want anyone sneaking back out.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I think the lake can form naturally over time. While Tolkien *does* have an example of lake-building (by ents at Isengard), there's probably not any real motivation for Eöl to drown the crater. It would make it much harder for him to get at the chunks of meteor if he did that.

Natural spring + rain water will fill up a 1 acre pond that's 12 feet deep in about one year. An entire lake will take much longer, unless there is a major tributary filling it.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Digging a tunnel to access a lake bed is also a good way to drown.
Hiding the ore could be the heart of his "you can't leave without my permission" aura around Nan Elmoth. He doesn't want anyone sneaking in, but even more he doesn't want anyone sneaking back out.
To the extent anyone in there learns the secret location of galvorn. Just imagine if Aredhel or Maeglin told Caranthir!
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Yes, just imagine. Though Aredhel would be more likely to tell Celegorm.

So to change topics, what should we have female characters like Luthien, Aredhel and Idril do during Season 4? Luthien has a number of scenes with Galadriel and her intelligence has been debated ad nauseam in the Episode Outlines thread, Aredhel should not be wasted, particularly since one of the Hosts pegs her as a favorite, and Idril is entering young adulthood, probably looking up to her.

Aredhel’s reasons for going to Gondolin are curious for me; why would an outdoorsy Elven lady who likes the open air like her go to a place called the Encircling Mountains?
 

Haakon

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Aredhel’s reasons for going to Gondolin are curious for me; why would an outdoorsy Elven lady who likes the open air like her go to a place called the Encircling Mountains?
Maybe she misses Valinor and dislikes Beleriand a bit; the idea to create something resembling Tirion could appeal to her.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Aredhel's motivations are confusing, I agree. After all...she seems like this brave, rebellious person, but mostly ends up meekly hanging out with her brother and (later) husband with little agency of her own. I feel like the decision to go to Gondolin should be one that she makes enthusiastically, but that there ought to be some sign of forboding towards her later discontent. We don't want her to get bored right away, or to have been dragged there against her will, but there should be...something...that chafes at her about Turgon's attitude almost immediately.


Also a reminder that we should probably give some thought to the The Dwarves and the Petty-dwarves storylines that will be discussed at next week's session.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Aredhel's motivations are confusing, I agree. After all...she seems like this brave, rebellious person, but mostly ends up meekly hanging out with her brother and (later) husband with little agency of her own. I feel like the decision to go to Gondolin should be one that she makes enthusiastically, but that there ought to be some sign of forboding towards her later discontent. We don't want her to get bored right away, or to have been dragged there against her will, but there should be...something...that chafes at her about Turgon's attitude almost immediately.


Also a reminder that we should probably give some thought to the The Dwarves and the Petty-dwarves storylines that will be discussed at next week's session.
I’m afraid I don’t know enough to be of much use. Is this the only topic of discussion next session?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Next session (January 11th), we will be discussing the Dwarves and the Petty Dwarves, as well as Eöl (whom we've talked about a bit in this thread already). Time permitting, we would also move on to the villain storylines, but I don't anticipate that happening.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Ok, I’ll take a stab.

How about we have Curufin ask Telchar to make him a knife, one that would cut iron to remove a Silmaril? Maybe a sword as well (Narsil)?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
The two swords are made out of meteoric iron, which is an awesome material to make blades out of, but understandably more rare than most iron ores!
I'm just catching up after the holidays, but I am a bit nervous about making the awesomeness about the fact that the iron simply came from a meteor. Meteoric iron was at one point a fantastic place to get pure iron in that it was the only place to get pure iron. In fact, blades made from the only source of pure iron were such a rarity, that they certainly would appear magical to people living prior to the widespread production of steel. To my knowledge, there are isolated cases of steel being used as early as the 11th century BC, but this was unusual enough for the metal to appear to have magical properties.



This dagger, however, found in the tomb of the Egyptian king Tutankhamen, is believed to be of meteoric iron. One of the special properties it possesses is a high amount of nickel impurities, giving a similar makeup to modern stainless steel. And, if you happen to have the exact right amount of nickel in steel, along with some aluminum, it forms a modern alloy that is being called "super-steel". Unfortunately, aluminum in meteorites is exceptionally rare. I think only one meteorite has been discovered to have metallic aluminum in it. However, this, combined with a nice, rigid blade, would be perfect for penetrating the impenetrable hide of the Father of Dragons.



All this is to say that meteoric iron isn't actually that special once you have widespread steel production, unless that iron has a particularly useful impurity. The only method I have discovered in my research thus far that could be reasonably used to produce a black sword is by giving it a hot chemical bath designed to create a coating of magnetite. This would leave most of the blade with a dark coating, though the sharpened edges would reveal the shiny steel beneath (the image is still striking).
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I'm just catching up after the holidays, but I am a bit nervous about making the awesomeness about the fact that the iron simply came from a meteor. Meteoric iron was at one point a fantastic place to get pure iron in that it was the only place to get pure iron. In fact, blades made from the only source of pure iron were such a rarity, that they certainly would appear magical to people living prior to the widespread production of steel. To my knowledge, there are isolated cases of steel being used as early as the 11th century BC, but this was unusual enough for the metal to appear to have magical properties.



This dagger, however, found in the tomb of the Egyptian king Tutankhamen, is believed to be of meteoric iron. One of the special properties it possesses is a high amount of nickel impurities, giving a similar makeup to modern stainless steel. And, if you happen to have the exact right amount of nickel in steel, along with some aluminum, it forms a modern alloy that is being called "super-steel". Unfortunately, aluminum in meteorites is exceptionally rare. I think only one meteorite has been discovered to have metallic aluminum in it. However, this, combined with a nice, rigid blade, would be perfect for penetrating the impenetrable hide of the Father of Dragons.



All this is to say that meteoric iron isn't actually that special once you have widespread steel production, unless that iron has a particularly useful impurity. The only method I have discovered in my research thus far that could be reasonably used to produce a black sword is by giving it a hot chemical bath designed to create a coating of magnetite. This would leave most of the blade with a dark coating, though the sharpened edges would reveal the shiny steel beneath (the image is still striking).
Well, the thing with the blades made by Eol is that they seem to be empathetic; Anglachel grows blunt when Beleg is killed, speaks when spoken to, and breaks when Turin commits suicide. Or does it only talk in Turin’s head?...
 
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Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Maybe some spirits are trapped within the galvorn, and in the blades. If they fall from the skies (from the battle of the Sun perhaps), they could be tied to the meteoric metal, just like other malevolent Maia get tied to Arda in various ways. I’m not saying they have to be evil - in our story, no one is evil to begin with - but they could have been servants of Melkor/Morgoth.
Everything in the skies above the clouds is magical or touched by Ainur. So it would seem logical that galvorn contains minor spirits or consciousness that an elven smith can utilise.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I don't think they should come from the battle of the Sun, because Eol needs to be in Beleriand long before that for his story to make any sense.

I think the fallen stars are just made of something special, or contain something special, rather than the ordinary real world meteoric iron.


About Dwarves, I have suggestions for two different storylines:

1. Finrod comes to Thingol telling him about his dreams from Ulmo, and his desire for an underground fortress similar to Menegroth.
2. Thingol talks to the Dwarves about it. Having heard that Finrod is rich, they suggest that they'll sell Nargothrond/Nulukkizdin to him.
3. Thingol tells Finrod and introduces him to the Dwarves. He is eager to make friends and willing to pay them handsomely. They lie, telling him Nulukkizdin was one of their old halls that they don't need anymore.
4. The Dwarves go to Nulukkizdin -- which is inhabited by Petty Dwarves -- and drive out the natives.
5. Finrod and his people are welcomd into Nulukkizdin and start modifying and enlarging it. Finrod has no idea it was stolen.
6. The Petty-Dwarves are really hacked off about this. They end up at Amon Rudh.

1. Caranthir encounters the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains. He initially does or says something very rude and they do not make friends with him.
2. The Dwarves start trading with Celegorm and Curufin. Celebrimbor makes friends, and both he and Curufin start learning some Khuzdul.
3. Amros, living on Amon Ereb, decides to mess with his brothers. He forbids the Dwarves to pass through the land he has claimed. He assumes they'll just stop trading with his brothers.
4. Instead, the Dwarves shorten their road and move it slightly north, into Thargelion, and take up trade with Caranthir.
5. Caranthir gets fabulously rich. Amros is not amused.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
No my point was not that it had to be the battle of the Sun, that was just an example. I was just speculating on the nature of galvorn.
 
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