Session 5-02: Scope of the Season

So what would propel Bereg to speak against those who his grandfather pledged his life to?

Probably similar things to what prompted Feanor and to a lesser extent Fingolfin to feel similarly about the Valar. There is a certain level of being "kept" at work here. To a degree, the Elves are giving in to what Professor Olsen has described as the "Valinor Impulse". Beleg could certainly feel like the Elves have drawn the Men into their conflict, and feel like the men should be their own lords, free of the interference of their "betters".
 
Probably similar things to what prompted Feanor and to a lesser extent Fingolfin to feel similarly about the Valar. There is a certain level of being "kept" at work here. To a degree, the Elves are giving in to what Professor Olsen has described as the "Valinor Impulse". Beleg could certainly feel like the Elves have drawn the Men into their conflict, and feel like the men should be their own lords, free of the interference of their "betters".
I guess he doesn’t understand that Morgoth’s just as opposed to the Edain as he is to the Elves?
 
This actually illustrates part of the problem. Boromir may not know who Arathorn is; even if he's heard the name before, he probably doesn't know Aragorn's lineage. That's why Elrond contextualizes it so. When Bereg shows up at the council, he's dealing with people who have either met or corresponded with his father. There's no reason for him to give that kind of context. It's purely for the benefit of the viewer.
I don’t think we can just automatically assume the people at the council know each other and each other’s fathers so well that no introductions are in order. However, even if they did, I doubt they could discuss the relationship between Elves and Men without bringing up Bëor. Then, all we need is a lidialogue like

BEREG: Let the Eldar look to it! Our lives are short enough.

FAKE AMLACH: Indeed, Bereg. For did not your forefather Bëor, who entered into the service of an Elf lord, die ere he had the chance to do battle against Orcs?

And here's the real issue. The close emotional connection is what is needed to create emotional continuity for the viewer. Also, I've spent a lot of time with my parents, and even my grandparents. My views on a number of issues are quite different. The audience should feel a sense of betrayal when Bereg speaks out against his grandfather's point of view. Instead, some random guy ... oh, was there a line when they named that other guy? anyway, some guy we barely know doesn't like Elves. So what? Why do we care?

If you want this to work, Bereg has to be connected to Beor in a way that makes it clear who he is. Just saying, "Bereg, son of Baran of the line of Beor" doesn't do that. If our story is going to hang on these characters, even casual viewers need to understand who they are.
I really don’t think emotionally continuity from Bëor to Bereg is necessary. Bereg is a very minor character in the story. He has some lines at the council, but the main character should be (fake)Amlach. Bereg will lead a group of Men back over the mountains and never be heard from again. That’s all the audience really needs to know about him, and his actions will serve to illustrate the success of Fake Amlach’s plan to drive Men and Elves apart.

Direct biological descent is not the only way to create emotional continuity. If we want to show that the House of Bëor is most friendly with the Elves, we can illustrate the cultural impact that contact with the Elves has had on even those of the House of Bëor who have remained in Estolad. Then, when Bereg speaks against the Elves, it will provide a break in this continuity, illustrating the discontent that Fake Amlach is going to exploit.

Trying to trace Bereg’s direct lineage back to Bëor puts more emphasis on the genealogy than I think we want to do. He is just “Bereg of the house of Bëor,” as the Silmarillion says.
 
Bereg will lead a group of Men back over the mountains and never be heard from again. That’s all the audience really needs to know about him, and his actions will serve to illustrate the success of Fake Amlach’s plan to drive Men and Elves apart.

Unrelated to showing lineage, but very related to the above... I think for SilmFilm I would like to greatly increase the number of Men that go west. Like, instead of a thousand, make it ten thousand. Make the partial victory of fake-Amlach (who, let's face it, is going to be Sauron) a much larger victory.
 
Unrelated to showing lineage, but very related to the above... I think for SilmFilm I would like to greatly increase the number of Men that go west. Like, instead of a thousand, make it ten thousand. Make the partial victory of fake-Amlach (who, let's face it, is going to be Sauron) a much larger victory.
Depends on how many show up in the first place.
 
It seems we are planning for the season to end with Dagor Bragollach. I'm not sure it's the best way to go. If we want the battle to be a surprise, perhaps the last episode isn't the perfect choice. In the Game of Thrones series, the most dramatic episode was always the penultimate one ("Battle of the Bastards", "Blackwater", "The Rains of Castamere", etc). This allowed for a more reflective last episode, or one dealing with the reactions to whatever happened in the penultimate episode. I think it's a good model. In this case, working on season five of SilmFilm, we could put Dagor Bragollach in the penultimate episode, and then show the buildup to Fingolfin's desperate attack in the final episode. It would give his end more space, I think.
Just a thought.

I agree that there are very good reasons to have the battle in the penultimate episode, and I think we should discuss that this coming session. Because so far, the Hosts haven't touched on the timing of the battle and the duel, so it would probably be a good idea to get them thinking about that pacing before we lay out the whole season. I suspect that the 'default' is to have the battle and the duel both happen in the final episode, and I'd rather they arrive at the conclusion that there is a better way quickly.......

So, to make that argument clearly, what would people want to see in the final episode, besides the duel (and aftermath of Fingolfin's death)?
 
I agree that there are very good reasons to have the battle in the penultimate episode, and I think we should discuss that this coming session. Because so far, the Hosts haven't touched on the timing of the battle and the duel, so it would probably be a good idea to get them thinking about that pacing before we lay out the whole season. I suspect that the 'default' is to have the battle and the duel both happen in the final episode, and I'd rather they arrive at the conclusion that there is a better way quickly.......

So, to make that argument clearly, what would people want to see in the final episode, besides the duel (and aftermath of Fingolfin's death)?
I think Episode 12 could focus on the initial sudden attack on Dorthonion:
  • rivers of flame
  • Glaurung and the Balrogs
  • deaths of Angrod, Aegnor, and Bregolas
  • Celegorm and Curufin being driven out of Aglon

Episode 13 could still include some of the battle, but the pace would have slowed down, and there would be some points of hope:
  • Maedhros recapturing Aglon
  • the House of Beor escaping
  • Barahir and his band saving Finrod then remaining in Dorthonion
  • the Feanorians reaching safety (Celegorm and Curufin in Nargothrond, Maedhros and Maglor on Himring, Caranthir and Amras on Amon Ereb)
  • Fingolfin's duel and the aftermath
The death of Hador needs to happen some time in the Dagor Bragollach, but I am not sure which episode it would fit better in.
 
I think Episode 12 could focus on the initial sudden attack on Dorthonion:
  • rivers of flame
  • Glaurung and the Balrogs
  • deaths of Angrod, Aegnor, and Bregolas
  • Celegorm and Curufin being driven out of Aglon
Episode 13 could still include some of the battle, but the pace would have slowed down, and there would be some points of hope:
  • Maedhros recapturing Aglon
  • the House of Beor escaping
  • Barahir and his band saving Finrod then remaining in Dorthonion
  • the Feanorians reaching safety (Celegorm and Curufin in Nargothrond, Maedhros and Maglor on Himring, Caranthir and Amras on Amon Ereb)
  • Fingolfin's duel and the aftermath
The death of Hador needs to happen some time in the Dagor Bragollach, but I am not sure which episode it would fit better in.
I think that Hador's death would likely happen in Episode 12, to coincide with the rest of the calamities occuring in the rest of Beleriand. Fingolfin will likely be aware of his death, and it’ll likely play into his decision to challenge Morgoth to the death.
 
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I guess he doesn’t understand that Morgoth’s just as opposed to the Edain as he is to the Elves?

It's not that. I don't think there's any indication that Bereg thinks Morgoth is simply misunderstood or that aligning with him would be as valid an option as aligning with the Elves.

It's more...the Men crossed the Mountains into Beleriand in their quest to go West and...what? What were they looking for? I think it's fair to think they were looking for a better place, and possibly Valinor - a land of light. Instead, they got Beleriand in the midst of a war. Not a very active war, mind you - you can go generations between skirmishes. But still, there is an impulse for the Men to say "I didn't sign up for this," and I think that is what Bereg is voicing. He doesn't think it's *their* war. Doesn't mean he likes Morgoth, or anything, but he does consider 'Why don't we just leave?' the better option than getting embroiled in an endless war with allies he doesn't see eye to eye with.

Bëor willingly became the vassal of Finrod. That doesn't mean that all of Bëor's descendants will think that's a good idea.
 
It's not that. I don't think there's any indication that Bereg thinks Morgoth is simply misunderstood or that aligning with him would be as valid an option as aligning with the Elves.

It's more...the Men crossed the Mountains into Beleriand in their quest to go West and...what? What were they looking for? I think it's fair to think they were looking for a better place, and possibly Valinor - a land of light. Instead, they got Beleriand in the midst of a war. Not a very active war, mind you - you can go generations between skirmishes. But still, there is an impulse for the Men to say "I didn't sign up for this," and I think that is what Bereg is voicing. He doesn't think it's *their* war. Doesn't mean he likes Morgoth, or anything, but he does consider 'Why don't we just leave?' the better option than getting embroiled in an endless war with allies he doesn't see eye to eye with.

Bëor willingly became the vassal of Finrod. That doesn't mean that all of Bëor's descendants will think that's a good idea.
I guess he never heard the tale of Morgoth causing Men's fall while growing up?
 
I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. It's not that Bereg doesn't recognize that Morgoth is a villain. It's that he thinks the prudent move is to get very far away from him, rather than to live next door and engage in an endless war with him.
 
I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. It's not that Bereg doesn't recognize that Morgoth is a villain. It's that he thinks the prudent move is to get very far away from him, rather than to live next door and engage in an endless war with him.
Okay, I think I understand now. But still, it seems that he doesn’t understand that Morgoth uprooted himself to corrupt or kill them; theoretically, he’d chase them around because they’re of Iluvatar’s creation.
 
Okay, I think I understand now. But still, it seems that he doesn’t understand that Morgoth uprooted himself to corrupt or kill them; theoretically, he’d chase them around because they’re of Iluvatar’s creation.

Shortsightedness is indeed a thing. And probably not the wrong note to hit here.

It's not that he doesn't understand the past. It's that saving the lives of his people for generations seems good enough for him.
 
Yes. While Morgoth could, theoretically, chase them to the ends of the earth, it does seem rather more likely that Morgoth will hunt them down and kill them if they stay in Beleriand and ally themselves to the Noldor. Leaving Beleriand certainly delays that being an issue, and reduces the threat significantly.

It might be short-sighted, but a solution that works for hundreds of years is something that is appealing to mortal men. It's the elves who are like, look, this is eventually going to be a problem, so we can't ignore it! They naturally have a longer view in mind.
 
Yes. While Morgoth could, theoretically, chase them to the ends of the earth, it does seem rather more likely that Morgoth will hunt them down and kill them if they stay in Beleriand and ally themselves to the Noldor. Leaving Beleriand certainly delays that being an issue, and reduces the threat significantly.

It might be short-sighted, but a solution that works for hundreds of years is something that is appealing to mortal men. It's the elves who are like, look, this is eventually going to be a problem, so we can't ignore it! They naturally have a longer view in mind.

Right. We've understood the impact of greenhouse gases on world climate for over a hundred years (our understanding has deepened over time), but the betterment of human life in the here and now have generally overruled the danger of climate change in the minds of many.
 
Yes. While Morgoth could, theoretically, chase them to the ends of the earth, it does seem rather more likely that Morgoth will hunt them down and kill them if they stay in Beleriand and ally themselves to the Noldor. Leaving Beleriand certainly delays that being an issue, and reduces the threat significantly.

I think the passage of time is important here. It has been 60+ years since Beor brought his people into Beleriand, and Bereg (like most of those who will speak at the council) has spent his entire life in Beleriand. The men who crossed the mountains came looking for the west and a land of light, but also wanted to leave behind evil Morgoth had caused in the east (although we don’t know a lot about what that was and don’t need to be specific about it). But Bereg doesn’t really know why they came (he may have heard some vague stories, but that is not the same as living through it). All he knows is the state of constant low grade war where attack from Angband is a constant threat. In contrast, he knows almost nothing about Eriador, but could tell himself that it is a perfectly safe place where his people could live in peace. The elves have very specific grievances against Morgoth, and he their war with him has gone on for centuries and can be expected to go on for more. Bereg could reasonably believe that while he is besieged n Angband and fighting the elves, he won’t have much thought for what happens in Eriador and will leave men alone once they depart. He’s wrong about Morgoth’s power, but he doesn’t have to be unaware of Morgoth’s evil.
 
So who should be in the wrong in the debate?
I suspect we want the audience to side with the Elf-friends in the debate, though we may want them to have some sympathy for the dissenters like Bereg. Fake Amlach will obviously be wrong because he is lying when he says Morgoth and the Valar do not exist.
 
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