Session 5-02: Scope of the Season

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
I'm struggling to keep up with the pace of the discussion (as someone who is still able to work full time while practicing social distancing I have less time, not more, now that I also have to be a part-time homeschool teacher on top of it).

When, a few pages ago, I suggested Bereg take a larger population of Men away, I was throwing a number out at random. I don't literally mean "ten thousand", I mean "a very much larger proportion of the total population than might be there in the PubSil". I don't know what the House of Beor looks like, population-wise, at that point in the story. But what if Bereg walks away with 60% of them? You get two victories then - Sauron wins because so many Men are out of the picture, and real-Amlach wins because it very well could have been almost 100%.

You can still make it all work for later population sizes by making the initial size of the House of Beor enough larger that the remainder are still the same size as what we want to have still around - it's only the people who go away that there are more of.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I'm struggling to keep up with the pace of the discussion (as someone who is still able to work full time while practicing social distancing I have less time, not more, now that I also have to be a part-time homeschool teacher on top of it).

When, a few pages ago, I suggested Bereg take a larger population of Men away, I was throwing a number out at random. I don't literally mean "ten thousand", I mean "a very much larger proportion of the total population than might be there in the PubSil". I don't know what the House of Beor looks like, population-wise, at that point in the story. But what if Bereg walks away with 60% of them? You get two victories then - Sauron wins because so many Men are out of the picture, and real-Amlach wins because it very well could have been almost 100%.

You can still make it all work for later population sizes by making the initial size of the House of Beor enough larger that the remainder are still the same size as what we want to have still around - it's only the people who go away that there are more of.
Probably not 60%. I don’t think Fingolfin would consider an assault on Angband if he didn’t have the necessary numbers from all the realms of Elves and Men.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
If Fingolfin thinks he needs (random example, feel free to add a zero, or divide by 5, or whatever the actual number should be) 20,000 Men. Then there are still 20,000 Men after the exodus. But in this case before the exodus there used to be 50,000, where in the PubSil maybe there used to be 25,000. It's the pre-exodus number we would be fudging, not the post-exodus number. The post-exodus number would still be the exact same.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I'm struggling to keep up with the pace of the discussion (as someone who is still able to work full time while practicing social distancing I have less time, not more, now that I also have to be a part-time homeschool teacher on top of it).

When, a few pages ago, I suggested Bereg take a larger population of Men away, I was throwing a number out at random. I don't literally mean "ten thousand", I mean "a very much larger proportion of the total population than might be there in the PubSil". I don't know what the House of Beor looks like, population-wise, at that point in the story. But what if Bereg walks away with 60% of them? You get two victories then - Sauron wins because so many Men are out of the picture, and real-Amlach wins because it very well could have been almost 100%.

You can still make it all work for later population sizes by making the initial size of the House of Beor enough larger that the remainder are still the same size as what we want to have still around - it's only the people who go away that there are more of.
I wouldn't think real-Amlach would count that as a victory; most of the population left, which means less people.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Yeah, but until he swayed them when he returned just in time, it would have been all the population. Even if he doesn't consider it a victory, we would.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
About the heirloom of Beor/Bereg:
What if this heirloom that Bereg takes with him into Eriador would be seen later among the men living in Eriador/Enedwaith before the Númenoreans arrive in the Second Age? It could hint to the relations between the men east of the Blue Mountains and the Edain. The Númenoreans wouldn't know, but the observant viewers would notice it.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
If Fingolfin thinks he needs (random example, feel free to add a zero, or divide by 5, or whatever the actual number should be) 20,000 Men. Then there are still 20,000 Men after the exodus. But in this case before the exodus there used to be 50,000, where in the PubSil maybe there used to be 25,000. It's the pre-exodus number we would be fudging, not the post-exodus number. The post-exodus number would still be the exact same.
Right - the idea is that the audience should feel that a very significant number of people left and won't be available for the war - they should feel that loss. It's not everyone, of course, but it's not incidental or too small to matter, either. We would want them to see that happen and think, 'those people could have made a big difference in what happens later, and now they're just leaving...'

It's not a total failure, of course - Amlach (the real Amlach) manages to sway people and get them to not only stay, but consider committing themselves to the elven cause (he does, at any rate). But that loss should hurt a little.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Right - the idea is that the audience should feel that a very significant number of people left and won't be available for the war - they should feel that loss. It's not everyone, of course, but it's not incidental or too small to matter, either. We would want them to see that happen and think, 'those people could have made a big difference in what happens later, and now they're just leaving...'

It's not a total failure, of course - Amlach (the real Amlach) manages to sway people and get them to not only stay, but consider committing themselves to the elven cause (he does, at any rate). But that loss should hurt a little.
Still, I’m unsure if the Edain can recoup such losses in time for Fingolfin to decide that there are enough Men and Elves to challenge Morgoth.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
So...pretty soon it will be GANTT chart time! We won't likely get to that in Session 2, but hopefully in Session 3 we'll be ready to break down the Season Outline Episode by Episode.

Okay, in an attempt to list out all the plot points we want to hit this season (by character), here is what I currently have for the Noldor [Note that these are NOT in chronological order - and multiple bullet points may be in the same episode]:

1The Noldor
1.1Fingolfin strengthens the Siege
1.1.2Fingolfin tries to muster the Noldor
1.1.3Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth
1.2Fingon gifts Dragon-helm to Hador
1.2.1Fingon fights in Dagor Bragollach
1.3Aredhel restless in Gondolin
1.3.1Aredhel leaves Gondolin (FA 316)
1.3.2Aredhel travels through Nan Dungortheb
1.3.3Aredhel visits Fëanoreans
1.3.4Aredhel in Nan Elmoth
1.3.5Birth of Aredhel's Son Maeglin (FA 320)
1.3.6Aredhel's Return to Gondolin (FA 400)
1.3.7Deaths of Aredhel and Eöl
1.4Finrod meets Bëor
1.4.1Finrod accepts Bëor as his Vassal
1.4.2House of Bëor fights alongside House of Finarfin
1.4.3Finrod witnesses the death of Bëor and realizes what it means for Men to be mortal
1.4.4Finrod follows up with a middle-aged Andreth who is unhappy
1.4.5Finrod forms alliance with Nogrod; gets Nauglamir
1.4.6Finrod rescued by Barahir; gifts ring
1.5Aegnor meets Andreth and they fall in love
1.5.1Death of Aegnor
1.6Death of Angrod
1.7Maedhros accepts Amlach's pledge
1.7.1Curufin confronts Eöl while he is pursuing Aredhel
1.7.2Caranthir assists Haleth after the fact and offers her the chance to live in his lands
1.8Turgon allows Aredhel to depart Gondolin
1.8.1Turgon orders Eöl's execution and accepts Maeglin
1.8.2Turgon makes a cairn for Fingolfin

(I lumped the Fëanoreans together as they are all more minor characters this season, and I put Turgon at the end because he's distant from the action, but still has a bit of a story arc.)


Contrast that with what I have for the rest of the Elves:

2The Sindar, Laiquendi, and Avari
2.1Green Elves really don't like Men
2.1.1Can the Men go away now?
2.2Thingol doesn't particularly like Men either,
2.2.1so he says none inside the Girdle,
2.2.2but the People of Haleth can live in Brethil
2.3Galadriel and Celeborn return to Doriath?
2.3.1What do they think of Thingol's impression of Men?
2.4Eöl ensnares Aredhel and marries her
2.4.1Eöl takes Maeglin to Belegost
2.4.2Eöl follows Aredhel to Gondolin and kills her in an attempt to kill Maeglin
2.4.3Execution of Eöl in Gondolin
2.5Círdan?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Suggestion: perhaps if Galadriel and Celeborn return to Doriath they escort the House of Haleth there?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The Silmarillion Film Project Season 5 Session 2 will be held on Thursday April 8th at 10 PM Eastern Time.
...
In Session 2, we will definitely be discussing the Themes for the Season. We will also talk about the amount of screentime devoted to the Dagor Bragollach and Aredhel's story. And, if time permits, might be able to hammer out the timeline for Men.

While we probably won't be ready for this until Session 3, it would be a good idea to start breaking down what can go into each episode. Because while there are many stories we want to tell, we do only have 13 one-hour episodes in which to do so, and not everyone in our sprawling cast can be a main character.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Alright, here are a few alternative episode breakdowns. I'm not trying to figure out the placement of every event, just the general shape of the storylines across the season.
2782
This timeline tries to break up the action concentrated in the middle of the season.

Episodes 1-4 are pretty much the same as my previous timeline. I've added storylines for Fingolfin and Aredhel to Episode 1 and changed how I visually represent the overlapping in Episodes 3 and 4.

For Episodes 5-7, these events could probably happen in almost any order. For this, I tried to thematically connect them, which meant making the council with fake Amlach happen 11ish years later, during the time Aegnor and Andreth are together. The death of Beor comes at the beginning of Episode 5, so the rest of the episode can deal with the Elves' reactions to mortal death. I'm not sure it would be necessary, but if we really wanted to make Beor's death happen at the same time as the other events in the episode, we could have Beor live longer or be younger when he comes into Beleriand.

Episodes 8-13 are the same as my last timeline.

Here's another option:
2785
This removes Boromir fighting at Aglon in the early 400s and instead has Beor doing some fighting in Episode 4. Then, it skips ahead to the death of Beor. This might be a lot in Episode 4, but the events of the Aredhel story could be more evenly split between Episodes 3 and 4 if necessary.

The fighting in Episode 8 now involves just Hador.

However, I still really like the idea of having the fighting in Aglon so Aegnor can be involved in the battle. I also think it would work fine for Hador's story. I am sure we can think up a reason for Hador and Fingon to be over in that area. Maybe Fingon was visiting Maedhros and Hador was visiting Amlach at Himring (this also gives us a chance to see Amlach again). Also, Fingon re-gifting the Dragon-helm he got from Maedhros to Hador might seem less weird if Maedhros is there and approves of it.

So, here's a timeline that has both the fighting at Aglon and Beor fighting earlier in the season.
2787

If anyone has suggestions for a different breakdown of episodes and would like to see them on the timeline, let me know.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I think that episode 2 looks like it could need a bit more drama. I guess a lot could happen around the arrival of the other two houses of Men, and the Green Elves and Galadriel-Celeborn working things out, but I'd like to see Aredhel beginning to leave, or even leaving Gondolin in this episode (if it can be done without feeling rushed - preparing the journey or starting to convince Turgon can be fine at this point).
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
One question... isn't it a bit... weak, for the phantom to impersonate Amlach without getting the real Amlach out of the way? I mean... the whole thing sounds like a plan gone wrong, but we so far get only half of the story why.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
One question... isn't it a bit... weak, for the phantom to impersonate Amlach without getting the real Amlach out of the way? I mean... the whole thing sounds like a plan gone wrong, but we so far get only half of the story why.
What are you suggesting we do? Kill off the real Amlach?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
One question... isn't it a bit... weak, for the phantom to impersonate Amlach without getting the real Amlach out of the way? I mean... the whole thing sounds like a plan gone wrong, but we so far get only half of the story why.
I believe the real Amlach is left alive intentionally. It’s a show of power meant to sow distrust among Men.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I believe the real Amlach is left alive intentionally. It’s a show of power meant to sow distrust among Men.
I have an idea on how to connect the Fake Amlach plot with the Catch and Release program. How about we have Sauron running a plot where brainwashed Elves kidnap people from the House of Marach?
 
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