Session 5-03: Season Outline
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Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
I could live with that.
I have an idea for what Diriel could be doing, but people keep brushing it off.
Sorry, I have missed that I fear.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
The idea I had was to have Diriel assist in Rhogrin and Annael's escape, ie by having Diriel pass a hammer to Rhogrin, he nails the nearest Orc or two and frees some other captives.
Sounds reasonable.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Yeah, we had fallen elves/proto-orcs only in a few scenes, but i thought we had diskussed them not to look like orcs, who are squat ghoulish types, but like elves, only very thin, fragile, starved, with grey or sallow skin, thin grey hair... much like prisoners in a very bad shape or victims of torture and neglect. You know like Gwindor who looked like "one of the old among men" and who had scars...
That's why i guessed that thrall-elves probably would not look too far away from these.
That's why i guessed that thrall-elves probably would not look too far away from these.
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
It's not that anyone is brushing off your idea; Diriel passing a hammer to Rhogrin, as with your idea of Rhogrin Darth Vadering a hallway of Orcs, is the kind of detail that would come in at the script-writing level, which is not the level of planning we are at now. This doesn't mean your ideas are getting ignored or that you shouldn't be making suggestions like that at this stage; we just can't absolutely confirm that specific event will happen until we know more about how the escape will work.
Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
I suggest that Rhogrin's escape from Angband involve secret tunnels somehow, just as how Gwindor will later escape. One way I would like for Diriel to be involved (and she can do more than just this) is providing Feanorian lamps for the escapees. I had this in mind when I wrote Episode 8 of Season 4, so Diriel and her prospecting team were captured with a lot of Feanorian lamps. Diriel has a lamp that Celebrimbor gave to her the last time he saw her, and he could recognize this lamp if an escaped prisoner happens to bring it to him, either in Aglon or later in Nargothrond.
Looking ahead, I don't think there's any danger of Diriel being mistaken for an Orc or enemy during the War of Wrath. Surely, the hosts of the Valar are expecting to find prisoners in Angband, and I doubt Morgoth would have any luck getting his Elven slaves to fight for him in the end. In fact, I think the opposite would be more probable, that the prisoners would try to revolt or escape when all of Morgoth's forces are focused on fighting the hosts of the Valar. However, I think the most likely scenario would be that the slaves just wait through the War of Wrath, uncertain of the outcome, until they are finally released.
Looking ahead, I don't think there's any danger of Diriel being mistaken for an Orc or enemy during the War of Wrath. Surely, the hosts of the Valar are expecting to find prisoners in Angband, and I doubt Morgoth would have any luck getting his Elven slaves to fight for him in the end. In fact, I think the opposite would be more probable, that the prisoners would try to revolt or escape when all of Morgoth's forces are focused on fighting the hosts of the Valar. However, I think the most likely scenario would be that the slaves just wait through the War of Wrath, uncertain of the outcome, until they are finally released.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
So I'm looking at a map of Beleriand and wondering if we have the Pass of Aglon during Hador's time, why don't they get their fief there? And here's my suggestion: we could recycle the coastline attack that we adapted out of Season 4 and use that for Hador's big breakout, as he receives that fief to cover the left flank of the Noldor. The Pass of Aglon can be moved up to Beor's time to show that Men are not useless.
Alcarohtar
Active Member
I think this is a really good idea!
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Well, just to clarify, we didn't adapt that attack out, we just combined it with the Dagor Aglareb. This is fine as long as we can avoid repetition.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
How did the Orcs attack in our version of the Dagor Aglareb?
They attacked Vinyamar in Episode 9 of Season 4. Turgon returned to the city and repelled the attack, with help from Círdan's fleet.
This would be different because deserted Vinyamar wouldn't be the intended target. But I do agree that it looks like Morgoth using a failed strategy a second time, so there would have to be some other differences as well. Still, certainly possible that an attempted attack down the coast could happen at some point in Season 5!
This would be different because deserted Vinyamar wouldn't be the intended target. But I do agree that it looks like Morgoth using a failed strategy a second time, so there would have to be some other differences as well. Still, certainly possible that an attempted attack down the coast could happen at some point in Season 5!
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I suppose that with Vinyamar abandoned, there is nothing preventing an attack from shooting down the coast unhindered.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
The main settlement on the west coast seems to be Cirdan's territory and Cirdan does not play much of a role in the Wars of Beleriand.
Yes. But what? What does his relationship with the Noldor look like at this point, after the Kinslaying reveal and the Ban and all of that? Do we see some kind of diplomatic attempt from Finrod?
(Is the Barad Nimras already built? EDIT: Yes it was built last season)
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Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
I like the idea of bringing back the Orc attack on Hithlum, but I am not so sure about moving the fighting at Aglon earlier in the season.
In addition to the Dagor Bragollach this season, we have suggested including three instances of more minor fighting, each with a distinct purpose in our narrative:
The inspiration for this comes from an entry in the Grey Annals in The War of the Jewels, where Beor helps Maedhros and Maglor and the sons of Finarfin defeat the Orcs that were attempting to break through the pass of Aglon, and Beor is "the first of Men to draw sword in behalf of the Eldar." Now, I think it is important to keep in mind that the chronology of the Grey Annals is quite different, and Tolkien later rejected it in favor of what appears in the published Silmarillion. In the Grey Annals, Finrod discovers Men in the year 400, but the Dagor Bragollach still takes place in 455. Haleth is a male, and he and Hador do not come into Beleriand until the year 420. The council with Bereg and fake Amlach and the attack on the Haladin's stockade do not occur.
Largely because we do plan to include these two events, I think we should not include any earlier fighting that involves Beor. In The Silmarillion, there is no mention of fighting between Men and Morgoth's forces before the council in Estolad, and nothing the Men say in the council suggests they have done any fighting alongside the Elves, and I think the way they discuss Morgoth and the Orcs very much implies they are out of touch with this danger. Then, before the attack on the stockade, there is the line "But Morgoth, seeing that by lies and deceits he could not yet wholly estrange Elves and Men, was filled with wrath and endeavoured to do Men what hurt he could. Therefore he sent out an Orc-raid ..." I read this as suggesting that the attack on the Haladin is the first time Morgoth uses violence at such a scale against the Edain. Moreover, the reactions of the Elves, like Caranthir being impressed at the valor of Men and Thingol being skeptical about them guarding the Forest of Brethil against Orcs, fit with the Haladin being the first Men to prove themselves in battle against Orcs.
Now, I don't think the wording of the published Silmarillion is strong enough that we can't include that event from the Grey Annals at an earlier point in the timeline, but I think we should definitely consider the effects it will have on our other stories involving Men before we do so.
Another thing to consider is how this will impact the Elvish storylines. One immediate problem I see with placing a conflict at Aglon early in the season is the potential for conflict with Aredhel's story. I don't think we want Aredhel to show up in Aglon to visit Celegorm and Curufin in the middle of a fight, nor do we want Celegorm and Curufin to be mysteriously absent from their fortress for a long time right after an attack has taken place. We also don't want to have too many major attacks from Morgoth; otherwise, it will look like Fingolfin and the leaguer are not very effective.
I also think that not having an instance of fighting earlier in the season can benefit Beor and Hador's storylines. Beor's death in Nargothrond will be more shocking if he is never in any kind of situation in which his life at risk. Hador will seem more heroic when he helps the Elves in battle if he is not repeating something Beor already did.
Where the fighting that involves Hador takes place is up to us. I like the idea of it being in Hithlum, though I definitely think we should still consider having it take place in Aglon. I've already explained what I think are the benefits of having the fighting there in other posts, so I'm not going to go over that again.
Here are two more timelines with fighting in Aglon and in Hithlum, and in either place later in the season:
In addition to the Dagor Bragollach this season, we have suggested including three instances of more minor fighting, each with a distinct purpose in our narrative:
- Early in the season, the House of Beor proves their worth as enemies of Morgoth.
- The fighting at Haldad's stockade sets of Haleth's character arc and proves that Men do not need to directly serve the Elves to oppose Morgoth.
- Later in the season, Hador preves himself in battle and is given Dor-lomin and the Dragon-helm in return.
The inspiration for this comes from an entry in the Grey Annals in The War of the Jewels, where Beor helps Maedhros and Maglor and the sons of Finarfin defeat the Orcs that were attempting to break through the pass of Aglon, and Beor is "the first of Men to draw sword in behalf of the Eldar." Now, I think it is important to keep in mind that the chronology of the Grey Annals is quite different, and Tolkien later rejected it in favor of what appears in the published Silmarillion. In the Grey Annals, Finrod discovers Men in the year 400, but the Dagor Bragollach still takes place in 455. Haleth is a male, and he and Hador do not come into Beleriand until the year 420. The council with Bereg and fake Amlach and the attack on the Haladin's stockade do not occur.
Largely because we do plan to include these two events, I think we should not include any earlier fighting that involves Beor. In The Silmarillion, there is no mention of fighting between Men and Morgoth's forces before the council in Estolad, and nothing the Men say in the council suggests they have done any fighting alongside the Elves, and I think the way they discuss Morgoth and the Orcs very much implies they are out of touch with this danger. Then, before the attack on the stockade, there is the line "But Morgoth, seeing that by lies and deceits he could not yet wholly estrange Elves and Men, was filled with wrath and endeavoured to do Men what hurt he could. Therefore he sent out an Orc-raid ..." I read this as suggesting that the attack on the Haladin is the first time Morgoth uses violence at such a scale against the Edain. Moreover, the reactions of the Elves, like Caranthir being impressed at the valor of Men and Thingol being skeptical about them guarding the Forest of Brethil against Orcs, fit with the Haladin being the first Men to prove themselves in battle against Orcs.
Now, I don't think the wording of the published Silmarillion is strong enough that we can't include that event from the Grey Annals at an earlier point in the timeline, but I think we should definitely consider the effects it will have on our other stories involving Men before we do so.
Another thing to consider is how this will impact the Elvish storylines. One immediate problem I see with placing a conflict at Aglon early in the season is the potential for conflict with Aredhel's story. I don't think we want Aredhel to show up in Aglon to visit Celegorm and Curufin in the middle of a fight, nor do we want Celegorm and Curufin to be mysteriously absent from their fortress for a long time right after an attack has taken place. We also don't want to have too many major attacks from Morgoth; otherwise, it will look like Fingolfin and the leaguer are not very effective.
I also think that not having an instance of fighting earlier in the season can benefit Beor and Hador's storylines. Beor's death in Nargothrond will be more shocking if he is never in any kind of situation in which his life at risk. Hador will seem more heroic when he helps the Elves in battle if he is not repeating something Beor already did.
Where the fighting that involves Hador takes place is up to us. I like the idea of it being in Hithlum, though I definitely think we should still consider having it take place in Aglon. I've already explained what I think are the benefits of having the fighting there in other posts, so I'm not going to go over that again.
Here are two more timelines with fighting in Aglon and in Hithlum, and in either place later in the season:
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Well, I had never thought about moving the skirmish at Aglon as far up as Aredhel's misadventures. I had thought along the lines of an attack after the Council and the Fake Amlach incident; if one looks at a map, the Pass of Aglon is close to Ladros, with my thought being that the Edain under Boromir (father of Andreth) to plug the hole per se. If we're worried about putting Aredhel's journey concurrent with the Pass of Aglon, then we don't need them to be concurrent; Aredhel has 84 years between her disappearance in 316 F.A. and her death in 400 F.A.
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Alcarohtar
Active Member
I'd like to add that this period from the first defeat of Glaurung up to the Dagor Bragollach is called the Long Peace, so having as few battles and skirmishes as possible would be nice so it doesn't look like this is contradicted.
We should have the skirmish at the stockade, and maybe either the Hithlum skirmish where Hador proves his valor and gets Dor-lómin, or the skirmish at Aglon, OR combine them into 1 smaller battle as Rhiannon suggested.
I like the idea of having the Haladin be the only men to have fought orcs at the beginning. This could come up as part of Finrod's arguments when he is persuading Thingol into letting them stay in Brethil. This means no other battles/skirmishes before the one at the stockade.
In the Tolkiengateway article on the Long Peace it's said that "In F.A. 402, Orcs attempted to break through the Pass of Aglon, but the people of Bëor helped Maedhros and Maglor threw back the invaders. This was the first time Men fought on behalf of the Eldar. Their head was also given the region of Ladros of Dorthonion." If this is the case (I don't have or have read the The War of the Jewels) then I think this is an important moment. The idea that Hador wins Dor-lómin after proving himself is made up by us, so we should have to make it fit what we've already got. I think adding another battle would be against the idea of the long peace, and making it a battle at both Aglon and Hithlum at the same time would make it seem like a really big battle. This one is supposed to be so small that it isn't even really remembered as a propper battle. Then I only see one solution: to have either the house of bëor come to Hithlum and fight along side with Hador there, or have Hador come to Aglon. Since Aglon is the place of the battle, why change it? We need to come up with a reason for Hador being in Aglon instead.
So why would Hador be at Aglon with the house of Bëor? First I like what Rhiannon suggested about having people from the house of Bëor living with Angrod and Aegnor to show "that it was no good for Elves and Men to dwell mingled together without order". That means that the house of Bëor is already in Dorthonion, but does not yet have their own lands in Ladros. Where are the house of Marach? They are dithering about what to do yet, which means that they're still in Estolad! Estolad is just south of Aglon. Another possibility could be a marriage. Gildis, the wife of Hador, could potentially be of beorian descent so why not have Hador come from Estolad to Dorthonion to marry Gildis. Maybe Fingolfin is present.
Then lastly why should Hador be granted lands by Fingolfin who lives so far away? After the skirmish Angrod and Aegnor offers lands to the house of Bëor as a reward and also as a consequence of the failed mingling of elves and men. If Fingolfin is there for the wedding and the battle then he could offer to give lands to Hador. In some way or another it can come up that some Hadors forefathers had served under Fingolfin, and also that Amlach had served Maedhros. Hador would talk about the will of his folk. They do not want to serve the elves, they want their own lands. Maedhros doen't have any lands to give (as Ange1e4e5 suggested), while Fingolfin has. Hador makes it clear that they will not be serving the elves as the house of Bëor does, but rather help them as friends.
What do people think about that? Gildis wouldn't be a big character just in the background this is all about Hador and Fingolfin. I think it will make the distinction between the beorians and the hadorians VERY clear.
So to sum it all up I suggest:
- Bëor meeting Finrod and taking up service under him. A lot of his people move to Dorthonion to serve Finrods brothers at the frontline (no fighting).
- Haladin has trouble with the green-elves and moves to Thargelion.
- The house of Marach come over the mountains and Amras grants them Estolad (maybe we could do some things with Caranthir here setting up his flight from Thargelion to Amras realm during the Bragollach?)
- Haleth fights orcs and proves men can fight. She doesn't want to serve Caranthir so she moves on towards Doriath.
- Thingol has had bad dreams about elves (maybe the conflict in Ossiriand "confirms" to him that men only disturb peace with cutting down trees), he denies Haleth passage through his lands.
- Haleth goes past Nan Dungortheb and come into Brethil. Finrod persuades Thingol into letting them stay.
- Somethings go wrong for the beorians living together with the elves in Dorthonion (Maybe it's the effect of death?)
- the house of Marach does a lot of dithering, the council, Bereg leave and Amlach takes up service under Maedhros.
- Later Hador (who lives in Estolad) goes to marry a woman of the house of Bëor in Dorthonion. Orcs attack Aglon. Boromir and Hador fights together and secures the pass.
- Boromir is given Ladros to cope with the problems of elvish-human interaction, and Hador is given Dor-lómin after much discussion about what the house of Hador really wants.
We should have the skirmish at the stockade, and maybe either the Hithlum skirmish where Hador proves his valor and gets Dor-lómin, or the skirmish at Aglon, OR combine them into 1 smaller battle as Rhiannon suggested.
I like the idea of having the Haladin be the only men to have fought orcs at the beginning. This could come up as part of Finrod's arguments when he is persuading Thingol into letting them stay in Brethil. This means no other battles/skirmishes before the one at the stockade.
In the Tolkiengateway article on the Long Peace it's said that "In F.A. 402, Orcs attempted to break through the Pass of Aglon, but the people of Bëor helped Maedhros and Maglor threw back the invaders. This was the first time Men fought on behalf of the Eldar. Their head was also given the region of Ladros of Dorthonion." If this is the case (I don't have or have read the The War of the Jewels) then I think this is an important moment. The idea that Hador wins Dor-lómin after proving himself is made up by us, so we should have to make it fit what we've already got. I think adding another battle would be against the idea of the long peace, and making it a battle at both Aglon and Hithlum at the same time would make it seem like a really big battle. This one is supposed to be so small that it isn't even really remembered as a propper battle. Then I only see one solution: to have either the house of bëor come to Hithlum and fight along side with Hador there, or have Hador come to Aglon. Since Aglon is the place of the battle, why change it? We need to come up with a reason for Hador being in Aglon instead.
So why would Hador be at Aglon with the house of Bëor? First I like what Rhiannon suggested about having people from the house of Bëor living with Angrod and Aegnor to show "that it was no good for Elves and Men to dwell mingled together without order". That means that the house of Bëor is already in Dorthonion, but does not yet have their own lands in Ladros. Where are the house of Marach? They are dithering about what to do yet, which means that they're still in Estolad! Estolad is just south of Aglon. Another possibility could be a marriage. Gildis, the wife of Hador, could potentially be of beorian descent so why not have Hador come from Estolad to Dorthonion to marry Gildis. Maybe Fingolfin is present.
Then lastly why should Hador be granted lands by Fingolfin who lives so far away? After the skirmish Angrod and Aegnor offers lands to the house of Bëor as a reward and also as a consequence of the failed mingling of elves and men. If Fingolfin is there for the wedding and the battle then he could offer to give lands to Hador. In some way or another it can come up that some Hadors forefathers had served under Fingolfin, and also that Amlach had served Maedhros. Hador would talk about the will of his folk. They do not want to serve the elves, they want their own lands. Maedhros doen't have any lands to give (as Ange1e4e5 suggested), while Fingolfin has. Hador makes it clear that they will not be serving the elves as the house of Bëor does, but rather help them as friends.
What do people think about that? Gildis wouldn't be a big character just in the background this is all about Hador and Fingolfin. I think it will make the distinction between the beorians and the hadorians VERY clear.
So to sum it all up I suggest:
- Bëor meeting Finrod and taking up service under him. A lot of his people move to Dorthonion to serve Finrods brothers at the frontline (no fighting).
- Haladin has trouble with the green-elves and moves to Thargelion.
- The house of Marach come over the mountains and Amras grants them Estolad (maybe we could do some things with Caranthir here setting up his flight from Thargelion to Amras realm during the Bragollach?)
- Haleth fights orcs and proves men can fight. She doesn't want to serve Caranthir so she moves on towards Doriath.
- Thingol has had bad dreams about elves (maybe the conflict in Ossiriand "confirms" to him that men only disturb peace with cutting down trees), he denies Haleth passage through his lands.
- Haleth goes past Nan Dungortheb and come into Brethil. Finrod persuades Thingol into letting them stay.
- Somethings go wrong for the beorians living together with the elves in Dorthonion (Maybe it's the effect of death?)
- the house of Marach does a lot of dithering, the council, Bereg leave and Amlach takes up service under Maedhros.
- Later Hador (who lives in Estolad) goes to marry a woman of the house of Bëor in Dorthonion. Orcs attack Aglon. Boromir and Hador fights together and secures the pass.
- Boromir is given Ladros to cope with the problems of elvish-human interaction, and Hador is given Dor-lómin after much discussion about what the house of Hador really wants.