Session 5-03: Season Outline

So then what if we have something like this:
E1: Finrod finds Bëor, Bëor in service of Finrod, Aredhel in Gondolin. Finrod seeks council in Doriath and Thingol reveals his bad dreams about men. House of Bëor moves into Dorthonion.
E2: House of Haleth arrives in Ossiriand and comes into conflict with the green-elves. Galadriel and Celeborn sort things out and goes back to Doriath. Thingol thinks the conflict in Ossiriand confirms his thoughts about men. Aredhel restless in Gondolin
E3: Aredhel leaves Gondolin, Rhogrin and Annael escapes Angband (possibly with help from Diriel which reveals that she's alive), House of Marach enters Beleriand and Amras giving them lands to establish Estolad (probably no man characters, just Amras and Caranthir sorting things out maybe?)
E4: Aredhel meets Eöl, Annaels treachery, Bëor dies, first death by age seen by the elves, things are starting to change in Dorthonion (men grow old but elves do not, some men think that's unfair maybe? Maybe the bad guys hears about this?)
E5: Skismish at the stockade, Haleth declines Caranthir's offer, the haladin moves west. Unrest in Estolad, a big council to discuss what to do, someone may talk about the things in Dorthonion?, Fake Amlach, Bereg leaves with a lot of folk, Real Amlach in Maedhros service.
E6: Thingol refuses Haleth entry into Doriath, he will never let any man enter, Melian foretells Beren to Galadriel, Haleth go through Nan Dunggortheb. Young Maeglin, Eöl and dwarves?
E7: Hador visit old Amlach at Himring (?), skirmish at Aglon, Hador and Boromir (from Dorthonion) fights together with Maedhros and Angrod/Aegnor, Boromir is given Ladros as a reward and solution to the unrest in Dorthonion among men, Hador is given Dor-lómin. Fingon gifts the Dragon-helm to Hador at his arrival in Dor-lómin.
E8: Finrod visit Thingol to argue for the haladin, they can stay in Brethil. Dwarves working on the Nauglamir? Eöl at the dwarves, Aredhel and Maeglin escape, Eöl returns and persues them, return to Gondolin and death of Aredhel and Eöl.
E9: A lot of Andreth and Aegnor! (+Finrod)
E10: Fingolfin pushes for an attack, Maedhros declines for some reason
E11: Tying up things
E12: Bragollach (fall of Dorthonion, Aglon, Thargelion, Caranthir flees south towards Amras, orcs burn the rests of Estolad)
E13: Bragollach (Hador and Gundor falls, Fingolfin rides out, Caranthir joins Amras at Amon Ereb and they defeat the orcs there, Maedhros retakes and closes Aglon, Fingolfins duel with Morgoth, Turgon building his cairn)


Probably need to put in more feanorian stuff, dwarvish stuff and villain stuff. I haven't placed the reveal of Annael's treachery or anything about Fingolfins prophecy or dream or what ever it is that makes him believe that he has a chanse against Morgoth. Also I couldn't find a way to separate the skirmishes at the stockade and Aglon more, but I'd like for it to be maybe one episode more between them.
So I have here Episode 1 be Bëor/Finrod centric
E2: Haleth/Green-elves
E3: feanorians (Díriel's alive, even more men)
E4: Bëor/Elves vs men
E5: Council
E6: Thingol vs Haleth
E7: Hador!
E8: Aredhel+Maeglin
E9: Andreth + Aegnor
E10: Fingolfin
E11: ...
E12: Bragollach (everything goes bad)
E13: Bragollach (not as bad as feared, but still very bad)

The episode 7 midpoint event now is the skirmish of Aglon that here represents the end of the unrest of men and establishes the kingdoms/fiefs of men that will support the elves.
 
I wonder. Nobody assumes the Sindar are going to use force to make sure the Ban is effective. It’s not really a matter of power. Partly, it’s a social thing, Thingol is the most prominent of the first generation elves still around. You just don’t ignore his wishes. It can also be taken to work a bit like a curse perhaps. In any case, words aren’t just sounds in this story, so even if Thingol is stuck in a hole hidden among the trees, his Ban means a lot.
I would add that most of the Noldor feel incredibly guilty about the Kinslaying, even if they didn't take part. They want to prove this to the Sindar, and following Thingol's ban gives them a chance to do this.
 
If you have specific topics, a place we have used is in the Announcements forum, a "Notes for the Execs" thread for people who couldn't participate live to at least have a chance for their specific points to maybe get raised. It relies on MithLuin pointing the ideas out, so it helps if there is enough time in advance.
 
Once more something about Aredhel:
I see her story developing differently than Alcarothar. Well, I mean, it’s got some more elements.

1. In Gondolin. Restless. Decides she wants to leave. Turgon is reluctant.
2. She convinces Turgon she can leave. He sends his captains along with her. (Could be at the end of the same episode as 1.)
3. They aren’t allowed to enter or pass through Doriath. Aredhel continues by herself (!) through Nan Dungortheb to Himlad, only to find that Celegorm isn’t there.
4. She stays in Himlad for a while, for some reason not moving on to Thargelion (dislikes Caranthir?)
5. She doesn’t want to wait any longer and leaves Himlad. She’s tricked by Eöl.
6. The relationship with Eöl. Maeglin.
7. Aredhel and Maeglin (both!) want to leave their home, and do so. They are followed by Eöl, etc. Arrival in Gondolin and death.
 
SilmFilm Session 5-03: Episode Outline

We didn't actually develop an episode outline for Season 5 in this session. There were a lot of technical difficulties at the beginning, so the episode began almost an hour late, and we only got through some questions about the general shape of the season.

The hosts want to discuss themes and storylines more and then decide on an episode outline after that. Next session will involve discussing the frame, maybe reviewing suggestions for episode outlines, and discussing storylines more.

Mid-season turning point:

This season, there doesn't seem to be a climactic central point around which the season hinges. We may want to do something like in Season 2, where the central point was a time-skip. In this season, the first half will deal with establishing the relationship between Men and Elves; the second half will lead up to the Dagor Bragollach. The central point could be an event that clearly shows time has passed.

Aredhel's death does not make a good turning point because it is too isolated and does not deal with Men or other Elves. The Athrabeth is not really a turning point for either Finrod or Andreth. It also does not really affect the larger story. There does not seem to be any kind of dramatic shift that would work this season as a turning point.

Therefore, the turning point could then be a more gentle change, like the Athrabeth. The death of Beor could be the turning point. Maybe the Athrabeth could happen at the same time. The Athrabeth could be the point where Finrod realizes the siege is not going to last because of the increased change in Middle-earth.

We still want Andreth to survive the Dagor Bragollach. Andreth and Finrod can be the two central characters of this season; Andreth representing Men, and Finrod representing Elves. We can spread the Athrabeth out over the season and Andreth's life.

How many episodes devoted to the Dagor Bragollach?

Two. Exact placement of events and whether the running flames appear at the end of Episode 11 or the beginning of Episode 12 will depend on what happens in Episode 11.

Andreth should give a conceptually culminating speech at the end of the Dagor Bragollach. Maybe she could talk to Finrod.

What to include this season vs. later seasons?

Taking of Minas Tirith - Season 6

Orodreth retreat to Nargothrond - Season 6

Celegorm and Curufin retreat to Nargothrond - Season 6

Emeldir leading refugees (Andreth may or may not be with her) - Season 5

Hurin and Huor arrive in Gondolin - Season 7

Death of Tevildo - Earlier in Season 5. Haleth hunts down and kills Tevildo after being warned about him by Beleg.

Elf- vs. Man-centric stories

It will be interesting to show the Elven characters we know from Men's perspective. Maybe 50% Elf/50% Man. Hard to decide on numbers without discussing specific storylines.

Men who are the central characters of their own stories: Andreth, Haleth

Men who are characters in Elvish stories: Beor, Hador, Barahir

Maybe we could have an episode that shows both an Elf and a Man's point of view.
 
SilmFilm Session 5-03: Episode Outline

We didn't actually develop an episode outline for Season 5 in this session. There were a lot of technical difficulties at the beginning, so the episode began almost an hour late, and we only got through some questions about the general shape of the season.

The hosts want to discuss themes and storylines more and then decide on an episode outline after that. Next session will involve discussing the frame, maybe reviewing suggestions for episode outlines, and discussing storylines more.

Mid-season turning point:

This season, there doesn't seem to be a climactic central point around which the season hinges. We may want to do something like in Season 2, where the central point was a time-skip. In this season, the first half will deal with establishing the relationship between Men and Elves; the second half will lead up to the Dagor Bragollach. The central point could be an event that clearly shows time has passed.

Aredhel's death does not make a good turning point because it is too isolated and does not deal with Men or other Elves. The Athrabeth is not really a turning point for either Finrod or Andreth. It also does not really affect the larger story. There does not seem to be any kind of dramatic shift that would work this season as a turning point.

Therefore, the turning point could then be a more gentle change, like the Athrabeth. The death of Beor could be the turning point. Maybe the Athrabeth could happen at the same time. The Athrabeth could be the point where Finrod realizes the siege is not going to last because of the increased change in Middle-earth.

We still want Andreth to survive the Dagor Bragollach. Andreth and Finrod can be the two central characters of this season; Andreth representing Men, and Finrod representing Elves. We can spread the Athrabeth out over the season and Andreth's life.

How many episodes devoted to the Dagor Bragollach?

Two. Exact placement of events and whether the running flames appear at the end of Episode 11 or the beginning of Episode 12 will depend on what happens in Episode 11.

Andreth should give a conceptually culminating speech at the end of the Dagor Bragollach. Maybe she could talk to Finrod.

What to include this season vs. later seasons?

Taking of Minas Tirith - Season 6

Orodreth retreat to Nargothrond - Season 6

Celegorm and Curufin retreat to Nargothrond - Season 6

Emeldir leading refugees (Andreth may or may not be with her) - Season 5

Hurin and Huor arrive in Gondolin - Season 7

Death of Tevildo - Earlier in Season 5. Haleth hunts down and kills Tevildo after being warned about him by Beleg.

Elf- vs. Man-centric stories

It will be interesting to show the Elven characters we know from Men's perspective. Maybe 50% Elf/50% Man. Hard to decide on numbers without discussing specific storylines.

Men who are the central characters of their own stories: Andreth, Haleth

Men who are characters in Elvish stories: Beor, Hador, Barahir

Maybe we could have an episode that shows both an Elf and a Man's point of view.
So Andreth will be alive around when Beor dies? I thought that Andreth wasn’t alive yet.
 
The hosts seemed kind of uncertain on that. I hope they can be convinced otherwise when we discuss the timeline.
Well, we need about 80+ years from Maeglin's birth to his arrival in Gondolin, Bëor's already dead by the time of the Fake Amlach plot. We need a few decades or so for the Edain to grow in number so Fingolfin can decide that the time is ripe for an assault on Angband.

I'm still not sure why the Hosts want Amlach to be a contemporary of Bëor, since Amlach is decades younger than Bëor; if we hold the Council of 368 during Bëor's time, Bëor will look bad by not being able to keep a lid on his people and allowing a whole bunch (the book says 1,000 but there's a growing sentiment for more of the population to desert) to leave like that.
 
SilmFilm Session 5-03: Episode Outline

We didn't actually develop an episode outline for Season 5 in this session. There were a lot of technical difficulties at the beginning, so the episode began almost an hour late, and we only got through some questions about the general shape of the season.

The hosts want to discuss themes and storylines more and then decide on an episode outline after that. Next session will involve discussing the frame, maybe reviewing suggestions for episode outlines, and discussing storylines more.

Mid-season turning point:

This season, there doesn't seem to be a climactic central point around which the season hinges. We may want to do something like in Season 2, where the central point was a time-skip. In this season, the first half will deal with establishing the relationship between Men and Elves; the second half will lead up to the Dagor Bragollach. The central point could be an event that clearly shows time has passed.

Aredhel's death does not make a good turning point because it is too isolated and does not deal with Men or other Elves. The Athrabeth is not really a turning point for either Finrod or Andreth. It also does not really affect the larger story. There does not seem to be any kind of dramatic shift that would work this season as a turning point.

Therefore, the turning point could then be a more gentle change, like the Athrabeth. The death of Beor could be the turning point. Maybe the Athrabeth could happen at the same time. The Athrabeth could be the point where Finrod realizes the siege is not going to last because of the increased change in Middle-earth.

We still want Andreth to survive the Dagor Bragollach. Andreth and Finrod can be the two central characters of this season; Andreth representing Men, and Finrod representing Elves. We can spread the Athrabeth out over the season and Andreth's life.

How many episodes devoted to the Dagor Bragollach?

Two. Exact placement of events and whether the running flames appear at the end of Episode 11 or the beginning of Episode 12 will depend on what happens in Episode 11.

Andreth should give a conceptually culminating speech at the end of the Dagor Bragollach. Maybe she could talk to Finrod.

What to include this season vs. later seasons?

Taking of Minas Tirith - Season 6

Orodreth retreat to Nargothrond - Season 6

Celegorm and Curufin retreat to Nargothrond - Season 6

Emeldir leading refugees (Andreth may or may not be with her) - Season 5

Hurin and Huor arrive in Gondolin - Season 7

Death of Tevildo - Earlier in Season 5. Haleth hunts down and kills Tevildo after being warned about him by Beleg.

Elf- vs. Man-centric stories

It will be interesting to show the Elven characters we know from Men's perspective. Maybe 50% Elf/50% Man. Hard to decide on numbers without discussing specific storylines.

Men who are the central characters of their own stories: Andreth, Haleth

Men who are characters in Elvish stories: Beor, Hador, Barahir

Maybe we could have an episode that shows both an Elf and a Man's point of view.
What should we be developing for next session, barring technical difficulties?
 
What should we be developing for next session, barring technical difficulties?
I believe the frame will be the main topic of next session, so we should definitely discuss that beforehand. The hosts also said they would be willing to look at episode outlines that people suggest and would probably end up discussing storylines in that context, so I think we can discuss both how to divide the season up into 13 episodes and what exactly the storylines will contain. Additionally, they said they wanted to discuss how exactly to alter the timeline and genealogies.
 
Is it my memory acting up, or is Corey doing one of his famous "forgot that he wanted this, and now he wants that" things with Andreth?

A session or two ago, it was Hador who was going to be the bridge across the mid-season time jump, with young Hador and old Hador. Now it's Andreth. Can it be both (that seems weird)? Did he forget about the earlier Hador plan, or consider it and decide that the new Andreth plan was better?
 
Is it my memory acting up, or is Corey doing one of his famous "forgot that he wanted this, and now he wants that" things with Andreth?

A session or two ago, it was Hador who was going to be the bridge across the mid-season time jump, with young Hador and old Hador. Now it's Andreth. Can it be both (that seems weird)? Did he forget about the earlier Hador plan, or consider it and decide that the new Andreth plan was better?
It seems that he forgot. He had this idea for Hador making his bones as a young man and receiving Dor-Lomin, then picking up with the elder-statesman Hador who is KIA in the Dagor Bragollach. No mention of that was made in last night's session at all.
 
Is it my memory acting up, or is Corey doing one of his famous "forgot that he wanted this, and now he wants that" things with Andreth?

A session or two ago, it was Hador who was going to be the bridge across the mid-season time jump, with young Hador and old Hador. Now it's Andreth. Can it be both (that seems weird)? Did he forget about the earlier Hador plan, or consider it and decide that the new Andreth plan was better?


You have hit upon the very reason why I've not been super-easy about here of late. There will be many alterations before we actually get to episodes.
 
It seems that he forgot. He had this idea for Hador making his bones as a young man and receiving Dor-Lomin, then picking up with the elder-statesman Hador who is KIA in the Dagor Bragollach. No mention of that was made in last night's session at all.
It wasn’t from lack of trying to bring it up. I think last night’s session was a bit off for everyone, and I’m hoping that some of the suggestions that came out of it won’t stick.

Fortunately, if we follow the timeline in the book, Andreth will be middle-aged at the same time Hador is a young man, so it would make sense to have the Athrabeth and Hador receiving Dor-lómin at the same time.
 
I guess ultimately I'm still not seeing the prize for compressing the timeline. I'm not about sticking to the PubSil at all costs, I like it when we can find ways to diverge here and there while still keeping to the themes and overall arcs. But here, I just don't see it.

Having too many characters among Men is a feature, not a bug. They come and go before we get to know them. The Elves feel the same way! We need to adjust to this new reality.

It's not necessarily awkward exposition to restate the genealogy of any new Man we are meeting - the Elves will need to ask every time. "Ok, so who are you then? How do you fit into things here? Aaah, I knew your great-great-uncle. A fine fellow. And is he about somewhere? I'd love to catch up with him. Oh, he died 120 years ago? Pity." I think that Men would very quickly develop the custom to state long genealogies upon introduction to any Elf, as a courtesy, so the Elf would have some idea to whom they are speaking. As a Man, you never really know which of your ancestors might prompt a memory of friendship or service to any given Elf.
 
To be fair, I don't think the Hador idea was completely forgotten.

Keep in mind that there are a lot of different perspectives to juggle. The plot of the season has to do with the arrival of Men, their relationship with Elves (ultimately focused on whether or not they'll help fight Morgoth) and then the Dagor Bragollach. The theme for the season focuses on the changefulness of Middle-earth, and how the characters react to that. The point-of-view shifts between various main characters, some Men, and some Elves. So there's a lot going on.

Finrod is the main character of the season when dealing with the theme. He's the one who is going to have a change of perspective and thus an arc touching on that theme. He's also involved in a lot of the season plot. And, naturally, he's most involved with the People of Bëor - so Bëor, Andreth, and Barahir are all part of his storyline. Andreth is the only one of those who is independent of Finrod. Bëor exists in his own right, and we'll see the elves from his perspective in the very first episode...but at the end of the day, what happens with Bëor matters...because of the impact it has on Finrod and how Finrod responds to it. Bëor is a supporting character in Finrod's story (as is Barahir, though he's more minor).

Likewise, Hador is one of the most important characters we'll have this season for the Men. He's going to be the 'how the People of Hador came to serve the elves, but as their equals' guy. He's not going to be independent, though - his story will mostly be about how he interacts with Fingolfin and Fingon. So, just because we didn't talk much about him last night doesn't mean he's not still serving this important role in the story, carrying through most of the second half of the season. It just means that they didn't really see 'the exploits of young Hador' as the hinge of the season or the turning point. Also, he's more plot than theme. He and Andreth fill very different roles in the story, and I don't think they'll step on each other's toes by being contemporaries through most of the second half of the season.

Making Fingolfin, not Finrod or Aredhel, the central Noldo character this season is going to be nigh impossible. We know the season finale has to focus on him, so we *must* include him in significant stories all along....but a failed plan of attack isn't very compelling. We may want to consider having Thorondor bring Fingolfin news of Aredhel's death in the Hidden City of Gondolin, and how it happened.
 
Making Fingolfin, not Finrod or Aredhel, the central Noldo character this season is going to be nigh impossible. We know the season finale has to focus on him, so we *must* include him in significant stories all along....but a failed plan of attack isn't very compelling. We may want to consider having Thorondor bring Fingolfin news of Aredhel's death in the Hidden City of Gondolin, and how it happened.
How much is the outside world supposed to be aware of Gondolin? We know that the Gondolidrim are getting news from the Eagles, but how much information is supposed to go out?
 
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