Session 5-03: Season Outline

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
In response to Sauron: I think that Sauron being the tempter more in his skillset, as Tevildo is a torturer. He is Sauron the Deceiver after all and we have plenty of time for him to play torturer with Gorlim.

For Sauron blaming Elves for kidnapping Men: does every plot line have to follow the theme? The Sindarin plot for Season 3 did not coincide with the theme of Rebellion. I also wanted a reason for Amlach to dither on whether or not to support the Elves other than the arguments that Bereg has. And I also want Sauron to do his own dirty work from time to time.

Observations on 5.03: when the professor says something about having Hurin become Lord of Dor-Lomin directly after returning from Gondolin, what happened to his father Galdor?

Also: why do we have to have Celegorm and Curufin arrive at Nargothrond in Season 6? Surely there’s going to a quite a bit of people showing up at Nargothrond in the first couple of episodes of Season 6: Orodreth after getting his ass kicked by Sauron, Meril, Finduilas, Celegorm, Curufin, and Celebrimbor. That’s quite a bit of people.
 
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Alcarohtar

Active Member
Observations on 5.03: when the professor says something about having Hurin become Lord of Dor-Lomin directly after returning from Gondolin, what happened to his father Galdor?
I think he means that Galdor isn't really a big, important character, and when Húrin returns from Gondolin they should jump forward in time to when Húrin is lord in order to follow Húrin's story which is the important one in season 7 (or what ever season this will be).

why do we have to have Celegorm and Curufin arrive at Nargothrond in Season 6? Surely there’s going to a quite a bit of people showing up at Nargothrond in the first couple of episodes of Season 6: Orodreth after getting his ass kicked by Sauron, Meril, Finduilas, Celegorm, Curufin, and Celebrimbor. That’s quite a bit of people.
I think it's best for them to arrive in season 6 because all of that really sets up for the Beren and Lúthien-story that is season 6. I'm in favor of showing Celegorm and Curufin escape from the Bragollach at the end of this season (because it's part of the Noldor losing), but showing them arrive in Nargothrond next season. Also having Sauron take Minas Tirith next season. I think all of it would feel a bit out of place this season. The story this season is really about Finrod and his relationship with men, and Fingolfin and his decision to battle Morgoth, so setting up family drama in Nargothrond at the end would feel a little weird maybe. It could be done, but I also feel that starting with Celegorm and Curufin arriving in Nargothrond and Sauron taking Minas Tirith would be a nice reminder of where these people are since these are the most important (noldo) characters in season 6. It would give them more focus instead of jamming all of it into the battle scenes of episode 13 this season.

I don't know if for example Meril, Finduilas and Celebrimbor are the most important characters when they arrive in Nargothrond. That would certainly be Orodreth, Celegorm and Curufin (as well as Finrod). Celebrimbor would maybe get more attention when Lúthien arrives in Nargothrond. And Finduilas maybe even later when Túrin comes along. So far I don't really see what will happen to Meril. Was Meril an important character last season? If not maybe she would become more prominent during Orodreth's reign.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I think he means that Galdor isn't really a big, important character, and when Húrin returns from Gondolin they should jump forward in time to when Húrin is lord in order to follow Húrin's story which is the important one in season 7 (or what ever season this will be).


I think it's best for them to arrive in season 6 because all of that really sets up for the Beren and Lúthien-story that is season 6. I'm in favor of showing Celegorm and Curufin escape from the Bragollach at the end of this season (because it's part of the Noldor losing), but showing them arrive in Nargothrond next season. Also having Sauron take Minas Tirith next season. I think all of it would feel a bit out of place this season. The story this season is really about Finrod and his relationship with men, and Fingolfin and his decision to battle Morgoth, so setting up family drama in Nargothrond at the end would feel a little weird maybe. It could be done, but I also feel that starting with Celegorm and Curufin arriving in Nargothrond and Sauron taking Minas Tirith would be a nice reminder of where these people are since these are the most important (noldo) characters in season 6. It would give them more focus instead of jamming all of it into the battle scenes of episode 13 this season.

I don't know if for example Meril, Finduilas and Celebrimbor are the most important characters when they arrive in Nargothrond. That would certainly be Orodreth, Celegorm and Curufin (as well as Finrod). Celebrimbor would maybe get more attention when Lúthien arrives in Nargothrond. And Finduilas maybe even later when Túrin comes along. So far I don't really see what will happen to Meril. Was Meril an important character last season? If not maybe she would become more prominent during Orodreth's reign.
So why wouldn't we show Galdor? Hurin can't just pop out of the ground like the misconceptions about Dwarves, and who is there to welcome him and Huor home when they return from Gondolin? We'd need to establish who is ruling Dor-Lomin after Hador is KIA in the Dagor Bragollach.

I just feel like they shouldn't all show up at once, like all the Dwarves in The Hobbit.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
So why wouldn't we show Galdor?
Well I can't know exactly what Corey means, but I don't think he would cut him out totally. I don't remember exactly what he said about this either. I imagine having him there when Húrin returns, but not being a major character. Only be there behind Húrin's story.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Here's what is real, though. Men do, from a certain Elvish perspective, just pop out of the ground. Turn your back for a second and all of a sudden it's a different dude in charge in Dor-Lomin. How do you even keep track? We need to embrace this, I think. Right from the start.

Accustom our audience to having characters on screen that we don't know and never see again. Make them infer from context roughly who they are, what societal role they fill in which family/political unit. Costume, location, props, dialect/accent, broad phenotypes, musical cues in the score. All of these could provide the context necessary to give enough information to get by about the general roles of the endless churn of new Men.

Get to know the heroes among Men when we need them, and use expository dialogue when it is important that we know the station of specific Men when that is important (like I said a page or two ago, our Elf characters will need this exposition just as much as the audience does, because the Elf and the audience both might be meeting that specific Man for the first and last time) but we never get to know the duds at all.

Sure we can show Galdor, as some guy with a crown or scepter or what have you, and we might even get to learn his name and genealogy (see above), but we surely can't spend the screen time to get to know Galdor. Other than as a genetic placeholder, what value does he add to the story?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I just feel like they shouldn't all show up at once, like all the Dwarves in The Hobbit.
This gave me the delightful mental image of Celegorm and Curufin singing "Chip the Glasses and Crack the Plates."

But, seriously, I don't think there will be a problem with a lot of characters showing up in Nargothrond early in Season 6. When we say Celegorm and Curufin arrive in Nargothrond, what we mean is a large group of refugees led by Celegorm and Curufin arrives in Nargothrond. The same with Orodreth and Meril. If we want this to be one event, we could have both groups arrive at the same time and imply that they met somewhere in the wilderness before reaching Nargothrond. We could also have one group already be in Nargothrond when the other arrives, or we could show the arrivals of both groups at separate times.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The point Corey Olsen made was that in Season 7, which will be all about the Nirnaeth, we are going to have adult Huor and Húrin from early on. Their adventures in Gondolin as teens would be an episode 1 situation, immediately followed by a time skip bringing us up to date with adult Huor and Húrin in Episode 2. So, where's Galdor? Welcoming them back home to Dor-lomin in a single scene, probably at the end of the first episode of Season 7.

...at least, that's what we have for now. I should point out that we're still trying to plan Season 5, so a lot could change before we actually get to planning Season 7! So, that's a suggestion for now.

For Season 5, what we currently have is:

Episode 1 - A-plot: Bëor-centric. Bëor and company enter Beleriand by crossing the mountains. They hope to find...what? And instead, they meet Finrod. Harp, singing, etc. Bëor pledges himself to Finrod and goes with him to Nargothrond(?) The rest of his people hang out in Estolad.
B-plot: ?? Aredhel in Gondolin or Fingolfin working on the Siege
C-plot: ?? Finrod discusses Men with Thingol

Episode 2 - A-plot: Green-elves are unhappy with all these Men entering Ossiriand. Galadriel and Celeborn help smooth things over. People of (Hador) wind up in Estolad, People of (Haleth) end up in Thargelion. None of them are in Ossiriand, so the Green-elves are happy!
B-plot: ?? Aredhel in Gondolin or Fingolfin working on the Siege
C-plot: ??
.
.
.
.

Episode 7 - A-plot: Death of Bëor from old age
B-plot: Athrabeth - Finrod and Aredhel discuss the relationship of Elves and Men, and the differing fates of each people.
C-plot:
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.
.

Episode 12 - Dagor Bragollach!

Episode 13 - Aftermath of battle and Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth


Chances are *very* strong that we will revisit the content of Episode 7 after the other storylines get more developed! But in general, we have some concept of how the season will begin and end, so that's likely enough to get started with.

Does every plot line have to follow the theme? The Sindarin plot for Season 3 did not coincide with the theme of Rebellion.
No, not every plotline has to follow the theme. But the more that don't, the more disjointed the Season will become. Season 3 has a very unusual structure, and it would certainly puzzle the audience as to why we're suddenly switching to entire different groups of people as our characters. Season 5 will likely start to feel 'random', like we're just tossing a bunch of disjointed stories together, precisely because some plotlines are isolated and unrelated to the Season's theme. Let's...try our best to relate storylines to the theme when possible!

I think it's best for them to arrive in season 6 because all of that really sets up for the Beren and Lúthien-story that is season 6. I'm in favor of showing Celegorm and Curufin escape from the Bragollach at the end of this season (because it's part of the Noldor losing), but showing them arrive in Nargothrond next season. Also having Sauron take Minas Tirith next season. I think all of it would feel a bit out of place this season. The story this season is really about Finrod and his relationship with men, and Fingolfin and his decision to battle Morgoth, so setting up family drama in Nargothrond at the end would feel a little weird maybe. It could be done, but I also feel that starting with Celegorm and Curufin arriving in Nargothrond and Sauron taking Minas Tirith would be a nice reminder of where these people are since these are the most important (noldo) characters in season 6. It would give them more focus instead of jamming all of it into the battle scenes of episode 13 this season.
Yes, I agree that 'Celegorm and Curufin are in Nargothrond' is a very important plot point for Season 6, and not terribly relevant to Season 5. For Season 5, Celegorm and Curufin are fairly minor characters (having a bit role in Aredhel's story), but other than showing their survival and fleeing from East Beleriand, there's no need for 'starting' a new story for them in the Season finale.

Now, many TV shows *do* start their plot for the next season in the season finale. They want to show enough to get you intrigued, hooked enough to really want to know what happens next! So, some teasers and hooks and previews could be appropriate. But. We don't want to start telling that story yet. We will need to establish those two in Nargothrond in Season 6 anyway, so better to do it then, rather than as a 'refresher' repeating information the audience already knows.

I don't know if for example Meril, Finduilas and Celebrimbor are the most important characters when they arrive in Nargothrond. That would certainly be Orodreth, Celegorm and Curufin (as well as Finrod). Celebrimbor would maybe get more attention when Lúthien arrives in Nargothrond. And Finduilas maybe even later when Túrin comes along. So far I don't really see what will happen to Meril. Was Meril an important character last season? If not maybe she would become more prominent during Orodreth's reign.
Meril was important enough to have lines last season, but I wouldn't necessarily label her important. She is Orodreth's supportive wife, and their marriage was part of the 'Noldor and Sindar reconciliation' arc for the season. Finduilas is shown as a young child in the end-of-season montage. Meril's ultimate fate has not yet been decided. She is going to be Gil-galad's mother at some point.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I am listening to the sessions asynchronously so I have only been able to hear 01 and 02. I have to say I'm happy with what I've heard so far. I like the decision o focus on just a few carefully selected representatives of the kindreds of Men - and as far as I understand things, it does leave room for the kind of situations amysrevenge talks about (I mean, the leaders of Men will be passing by us and the Elves and we will only get to know a few) - the idea is not to erase anyone from the story completely. If we want, we could have some elvish loremaster making notes about lineages and even trying to explain, to Maedhros or someone who's mildly interested, who this or that Man is related to. It would be a bit of comic relief, perhaps, maybe not a bad idea in this dark story.
Episode 1 - A-plot: Bëor-centric. Bëor and company enter Beleriand by crossing the mountains. They hope to find...what? And instead, they meet Finrod. Harp, singing, etc. Bëor pledges himself to Finrod and goes with him to Nargothrond(?) The rest of his people hang out in Estolad.
B-plot: ?? Aredhel in Gondolin or Fingolfin working on the Siege
C-plot: ?? Finrod discusses Men with Thingol

Episode 2 - A-plot: Green-elves are unhappy with all these Men entering Ossiriand. Galadriel and Celeborn help smooth things over. People of (Hador) wind up in Estolad, People of (Haleth) end up in Thargelion. None of them are in Ossiriand, so the Green-elves are happy!
B-plot: ?? Aredhel in Gondolin or Fingolfin working on the Siege
I think Aredhel has to leave Gondolin as early as episode 2, even if she doesn't get very far that episode. Remember, she has to seek and be denied passage through Doriath, journey on her own through Nan Dungortheb, go to Himlad and stay there for a while, and then go back and encounter Eöl, and also we have to see something of their initially loving reletionship (and maybe even Maeglin being born?), before we jump to when she and Maeglin leaves. These events (before the jump) probably will be B- or C-plots, so I guess they will be spread out over more than one episode?, which means she has to start her journey early on.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
Proposals for some storylines.
Men:
  • Bëor:
  1. Bëor meets Finrod, Bëor serve Finrod
  2. Bëor’s people move to Dorthonion to live with Angrod and Aegnor.
  3. Bëor dies, unrest in Dorthonion, some men think elvish immortality is unfair?
  4. Bereg speaks at the council of Estolad, then leaves with a lot of people (some of the house of Bëor and some of the house of Marach)
  5. Andreth (young) meets Aegnor.
  6. Aegnor and Andreth stuff
  7. Aegnor and Angrod gifting Boromir Ladros after Aglon, as a reward and a way to separate elves and men and stop men longing for immortality. (This also separates Andreth from Aegnor?)
  8. Athrabeth?
  9. Bragollach
    1. Barahir rescues Finrod who swears the oath.
    2. Andreth speaking to Finrod after the battle?
    3. Emeldir leading the refugees away.
  • Haleth:
  1. The Haladin in conflict with the Green-elves
  2. Galadriel and Celeborn try to solve the conflict, the Haladin moves north out of Ossiriand into Thargelion.
  3. Orcs attack.
  4. Caranthir offers Haleth lands in his realm, to protect them. Haleth denies, she doesn’t want serve any elf.
  5. Haleth asks for passage through Doriath, which Thingol denies (because Thingol thinks his dreams were about them?)
  6. Haleth leads her people through Nan Dungortheb, they are hunted by Tevildo and his cats. Tevildo is slain.
  7. Haleth reaches Brethil, but is confronted by the Sindar again.
  8. Haleth meets Finrod and shows him the skin of Tevildo.
  9. Finrod negotiate with Thingol on behalf of the Haladin. Who eventually lets them stay there.
  • Hador:
  1. The people of Marach enters Beleriand and is given lands by Amras in Estolad.
  2. They are unsure of what to do, and the bad guys exploit this.
  3. They hold a council at Estolad, people from the house of Bëor also comes to speak. Fake Amlach lies and persuades many people to leave with Bereg.
  4. It’s revealed that it was a lie and Real Amlach decides to serve Maedhros.
  5. Hador visits Amlach and fights in the skirmish at Aglon.
  6. Hador denies serving Maedhros, he is given his own lands in Dor-lómin by Fingolfin, and the dragon-helm by Fingon.
  7. Bragollach
    1. Hador fights with Fingolfin and dies, he loses one of his sons.

Elves:
  • Fingolfinians:
  1. Fingolfin has some kind of vision, he thinks he's going to win against Morgoth?
  2. Rhogrin and Annael escaping
  3. Annael’s treachery
  4. Treachery discovered
  5. Annael choosing to go into exile in the hills of Mithrim.
  6. Aredhel restless in Gondolin
  7. Turgon sends captains with her when she leaves.
  8. Thingol won't let them pass through Doriath (they are not finarfinians?)
  9. Aredhel decides to go through Nan Dungortheb to get to Himlad, loses her companions
  10. When Aredhel gets to Himlad, Celegorm and Curufin aren't there (maybe they’re at the feanorian council talking about men?)
  11. On her way back Aredhel is tricked into Nan Elmoth by Eöl.
  12. Eöl + Aredhel
  13. Aredhel gets Maeglin
  14. Aredhel tries to escape with Maeglin while Eöl is away.
  15. Eöl follows them to Gondolin.
  16. Aredhel and Eöl die.
  17. Fingolfin/Fingon gifts Dor-lómin to Hador
  18. Fingolfin talking to Finrod? Fingolfin changing his view on change and the siege. The siege can't hold?
  19. Fingolfin calls for an attack on Morgoth, but can’t get the other elves with him.
  20. Bragollach
    1. Fingolfin/Fingon fights together with Hador
    2. Fingolfin duels Morgoth
    3. Thorondor delivers Fingolfin’s body to Turgon in Gondolin
  • Finarfinians:
  1. Finrod discovers Bëor, Bëor serves Finrod
  2. Finrod asks Thingol for council about what to do about men. Thingol reveals his bad dreams and says he doesn't want men in his lands (Beleriand), they can go to live in the north.
  3. Finrod and Aegnor/Angrod opens up Dorthonion for the house of Bëor to settle.
  4. Finrod witnesses Bëor's death by age and starts to notice that things are changing faster than before.
  5. In Dorthonion Angrod and Aegnor worder about how to deal with human mortality. Some men begin to think that elvish immortality is unfair.?
  6. Finrod meets Haleth, who has gone through Nan Dungortheb because of Thingol. Haleth shows him the skin of Tevildo.
  7. Finrod visits Thingol again. He talks about Haleth. Argues with him, about letting them stay where they are. Thingol only agrees when shown the skin of Tevildo.
  8. Aegnor meeting Andreth (young)
  9. Aegnor and Andreth stuff
  10. Aegnor and Angrod gifting Boromir Ladros after Aglon, as a reward and a way to separate elves and men and stop men longing for immortality. (This also separates Andreth from Aegnor?)
  11. Athrabeth?
  12. Finrod meeting Fingolfin?
  13. Angrod/Aegnor supporting Fingolfin's call for war. (Maybe seeing that they can't hold the status quo, i.e. avoid change?)
  14. Bragollach
    1. Angrod and Aegnor dying
    2. Finrod rescued by Barahir, swears the oath.
    3. Finrod speaking to Andreth after the battle?
  • Feanorians:
  1. Díriel working in Angband helping Rhogrin and Annael escaping
  2. Díriel drawing some kind of sign showing that she’s alive
  3. Curufin and Celebrimbor discovers Díriel’s sign?
  4. Men come and the feanorians have a council about what to do with them. They don’t ask Thingol. Curufin wants to use them to free Díriel. Amras maybe says that it would be sending them to their death like Amrod?
  5. Maybe Caranthir giving some support to Amras. They can’t risk war, it could destroy them, they need to maintain the siege. Maybe giving men lands protected by them would be better. This maybe starts healing their relationship, and sets up Caranthir fleeing to Amras during the Bragollach, instead of joining Celegorm and Curufin in Nargothrond?
  6. Feanorians (Amras) deciding to give Estolad to men (Bëor/Marach?)
  7. Caranthir offers Haleth lands in his realm, to protect them. Haleth denies, she doesn’t want to serve any elf.
  8. Amlach serving Maedhros
  9. Battle at Aglon, Hador and Boromir fighting orcs. Hador denies serving Maedhros and wants his own lands which Maedhros can’t give him (why not he can give the easterlings lands later?)
  10. Maedhros denies Fingolfin’s call for an attack (why? He doesn’t want things to change?)
  11. Bragollach
    1. Curufin and Celegorm loses Aglon and must flee west
    2. Maglor flees Maglor’s Gap when Glaurung comes, his people joins Maedhros and make a stand at Himring
    3. Caranthir must flee Lake Helevorn and joins Amras at Amon Ereb, they defeat the orcs there.
    4. Maedhros and Maglor manages to retake Aglon again.
  • Sindar/Green-elves:
  1. Thingol have bad dreams about men (maybe a message from Ulmo about the easterlings?)
  2. Finrod visits to ask Thingol for council about what to do with men, Thingol wants men to leave his realm and settle in the north.
  3. The Green-elves in conflict with the Haladin
  4. Galadriel and Celeborn try to solve the conflict, the Haladin moves north out of Ossiriand.
  5. Galadriel and Celeborn go back to Doriath.
  6. Haleth asks for passage through Doriath, which Thingol denies thinking that his dreams were about the Haladin cutting down trees and hunting all the animals (?)
  7. Thingol proclaims that no man should ever enter his lands (Melian foreshadows Beren to Galadriel)
  8. Finrod visiting again to try negotiate on behalf of the Haladin. Thingol is mad for the feanorians not asking him for counsel about men, and that they have given men lands right outside his borders (Estolad). Finrod argues with Thingol and Thingol is finally persuaded when Finrod shows him the skin of Tevildo (Beleg or Mablung recognizes it).

Dwarves:
  1. Dwarves makes the Nauglamir.
  2. Eöl visits dwarves.

Bad guys:
  1. Thrall-elves, Díriel
  2. Annael’s treachery
  3. Fake Amlach plan goes wrong?
  4. Tevildo vs. Haleth
  5. Bragollach
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I’m beginning to have doubts about Diriel’s role in the escape of the prisoners. I’m not against her helping them, but... If she helps them, why doesn’t she come along? Also, our idea that Curufin finds out that she’s alive must result in him wanting to rescue her, but where does that storyline lead? There’s not going to be any rescue mission. So what happens with that idea? I think I might be more comfortable with the idea that everyone presumes she’s dead, and then she might outlive them all, although in Angband.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
I'm also having some problems with Díriel helping them escape Angband. First of all why wouldn't Annael or Rhogrin tell Curufin that she is alive and helped them escape? I don't know if that's gonna work if we rather want her to send out hidden messages telling she's alive through her work.

I tried to connect Curufin's wish to rescue his wife with their response to men coming. Curufin would want to use men to rescue her, but the rest of the feanorians don't want to go to war yet. I used it to bring Caranthir and Amras together, but it could also be a reason for Curufin going to Nargothrond instead of either Maedhros or Amras. Curufin may think that it's impossible to do it by himself, and maybe feels that his brothers have betrayed him and Díriel, maybe he would bring up the oath as a reason for attacking Morgoth and rescuing Díriel. He could maybe go to Nargothrond to get support for an attack on Morgoth next season? Later Maedhros will see that the siege is broken and they can't wait for Morgoth to crush them, Curufin would come back and help organize the union of Maedhros.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
Another thing I did was cutting out the House of Bëor from Estolad. So instead have Finrod's brothers (Angrod and Aegnor) open their lands for them to live with the elves in Dorthonion after his talk with Thingol. So Finrod would listen to Thingol, but later when the house of Marach comes the feanorians decide to give them Estolad without talking to Thingol.

I think that this simplified migration would help to show Bëor's people's relationship with Finrod (and his brothers), the problems of elves and men living together, the differences of Finrod's and the feanorians' relationship to Thingol, as well as the differences of Bëor's people who is devoted to serving the elves from the start and the people of Marach/Hador who are dithering and being unsure of what to do. This also separates the houses of men geographically too.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I'm also having some problems with Díriel helping them escape Angband. First of all why wouldn't Annael or Rhogrin tell Curufin that she is alive and helped them escape? I don't know if that's gonna work if we rather want her to send out hidden messages telling she's alive through her work.

I tried to connect Curufin's wish to rescue his wife with their response to men coming. Curufin would want to use men to rescue her, but the rest of the feanorians don't want to go to war yet. I used it to bring Caranthir and Amras together, but it could also be a reason for Curufin going to Nargothrond instead of either Maedhros or Amras. Curufin may think that it's impossible to do it by himself, and maybe feels that his brothers have betrayed him and Díriel, maybe he would bring up the oath as a reason for attacking Morgoth and rescuing Díriel. He could maybe go to Nargothrond to get support for an attack on Morgoth next season? Later Maedhros will see that the siege is broken and they can't wait for Morgoth to crush them, Curufin would come back and help organize the union of Maedhros.
There was a discussion about having Diriel suffer some sort of injury that would be some form of deterioration; the "least visible but probably debilitating in some way" that I can think of is maybe a pinched nerve, I remember reading up on Packers' running back Paul Hornung suffering a pinched nerve in his neck that caused a deterioration in one of his shoulders and forced him to retire from football, lest he risk paralysis. The hard labor that Diriel endures will likely have an adverse physical effect on her, likely preventing her from escaping in some way, so she'll have to resist Morgoth through other means.
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Here's what is real, though. Men do, from a certain Elvish perspective, just pop out of the ground. Turn your back for a second and all of a sudden it's a different dude in charge in Dor-Lomin. How do you even keep track? We need to embrace this, I think. Right from the start.

Accustom our audience to having characters on screen that we don't know and never see again. Make them infer from context roughly who they are, what societal role they fill in which family/political unit. Costume, location, props, dialect/accent, broad phenotypes, musical cues in the score. All of these could provide the context necessary to give enough information to get by about the general roles of the endless churn of new Men.

Get to know the heroes among Men when we need them, and use expository dialogue when it is important that we know the station of specific Men when that is important (like I said a page or two ago, our Elf characters will need this exposition just as much as the audience does, because the Elf and the audience both might be meeting that specific Man for the first and last time) but we never get to know the duds at all.

Sure we can show Galdor, as some guy with a crown or scepter or what have you, and we might even get to learn his name and genealogy (see above), but we surely can't spend the screen time to get to know Galdor. Other than as a genetic placeholder, what value does he add to the story?
The problem comes out of whether or not we want our audience to care about these characters. Sure Barahir could be an isolated character, the lineage of whom doesn't really matter, but then why will the audience care about the fact that the relationship between Finrod and the House of Beor is restored? Why will they care when he is killed? And sure, you can just *explain* his lineage, but even if the audience absorbs that info dump, it's not the same. And I don't think that we should be accustoming the audience to this kind of confusion, since we really aren't going to have a lot more material like this. We have Beren & Luthien, the Nirnaeth, Turin, the Fall of Gondolin, and the 2nd and 3rd Kinslayings. These are deeply personal stories. Sure, we'll have the 2nd age to wrestle with, but we should be finding ways to make those stories personal as well.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
There was a discussion about having Diriel suffer some sort of injury that would be some form of deterioration; the "least visible but probably debilitating in some way" that I can think of is maybe a pinched nerve, I remember reading up on Packers' running back Paul Hornung suffering a pinched nerve in his neck that caused the deterioration of one of his shoulders and forced him to retire from football. The hard labor that Diriel endures will likely have an adverse physical effect on her, likely preventing her from escaping in some way, so she'll have to resist Morgoth through other means.
Yes I imagine that there are lots of different solutions to the question of why she doesn't escape, she getting some kind of injury would explain it. If she does help them escape I don't know if we can have her sending messages through the armour she makes though. As was said earlier there are a lot of problems with the idea of those hidden messages. First of all how can she write messages without the orcs discovering them? What kind of messages would she write that orcs wouldn't discover, but elves would? A possibility was to have her carve some kind of sign that Curufin would recognize. It would only give them the information of her being alive, nothing more. So why would we have her send a message telling she's alive if she could send that message with Annael and Rhogrin?
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
In my suggestion for storylines it seems like I have initially pretty much every elf against change, but Finrod changes this. Angrod and Aegnor joins him, later also Fingolfin. Thingol seems to be on the other side of the spectrum even banning men from entering his realm. The feanorians are also pretty much against changing the status quo being eager to maintain the siege, except for Curufin who wants to attack to rescue Díriel.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
In my suggestion for storylines it seems like I have initially pretty much every elf against change, but Finrod changes this. Angrod and Aegnor joins him, later also Fingolfin. Thingol seems to be on the other side of the spectrum even banning men from entering his realm. The feanorians are also pretty much against changing the status quo being eager to maintain the siege, except for Curufin who wants to attack to rescue Díriel.
I would typically put Maedhros against the status quo, but he doesn't. Why? That's a question we've been puzzling over since it seems uncharacteristic of him given what we know of Maedhros and his personality.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I argued somewhere that many of the elven lords realise that they really can’t win unless Morgoth himself gives up, since they not only have to beat his armies - they’ve already done that, more or less, and Morgoth just locked himself inside of Angband and bred more orcs until he had envoy to attack again. That’s partly why Fingolfin challenges Morgoth later (and, as I understand it, because he has some kind of foreboding?). Maedhros, having seen Angband from the inside, could be thinking along these lines. He wants to attack, but how does one attack a mountain range? He would perhaps challenge Morgoth, I don’t know, but if he considers this, he must also think that he himself can never beat Morgoth, and he cannot ask anyone of his brothers to make such a challenge. He’s trapped, in a way.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I am listening to the sessions asynchronously so I have only been able to hear 01 and 02. I have to say I'm happy with what I've heard so far. I like the decision o focus on just a few carefully selected representatives of the kindreds of Men - and as far as I understand things, it does leave room for the kind of situations amysrevenge talks about (I mean, the leaders of Men will be passing by us and the Elves and we will only get to know a few) - the idea is not to erase anyone from the story completely. If we want, we could have some elvish loremaster making notes about lineages and even trying to explain, to Maedhros or someone who's mildly interested, who this or that Man is related to. It would be a bit of comic relief, perhaps, maybe not a bad idea in this dark story.

I think Aredhel has to leave Gondolin as early as episode 2, even if she doesn't get very far that episode. Remember, she has to seek and be denied passage through Doriath, journey on her own through Nan Dungortheb, go to Himlad and stay there for a while, and then go back and encounter Eöl, and also we have to see something of their initially loving reletionship (and maybe even Maeglin being born?), before we jump to when she and Maeglin leaves. These events (before the jump) probably will be B- or C-plots, so I guess they will be spread out over more than one episode?, which means she has to start her journey early on.
I can get behind that, if we can persuade the Professor that we can mention other generations of Men; he was highly reluctant to do so in the first session.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
So there are some elves who want to attack Morgoth *now*, some who want to wait but eventually attack, and some who are content with the status quo and don't want to attack.
1. Fingolfin would want to attack because he can see that the siege won't hold (and that dream thing makes him believe that he can win?)
2. Angrod and Aegnor think the same.
3. Curufin wants to attack to save Díriel.
4. Thingol does not want to attack, he wants everything to be as it is.
5. Maedhros would maybe see that they can't win a war against him because he has been there are seen things. Maybe he also doesn't want to harm his brothers, or sees that they don't have enough forces? Maybe he just wants to delay the inevitable defeat? After Beren and Lúthien manages to take a silmaril he gets renewed hope and thinks that maybe it could be a small chance to win after all?
6. What about Finrod?

Does Finrod support Fingolfin's plans? I feel like yes because he's pro change, but then if so many support Fingolfin why doesn't the attack come? Probably since the feanorians and Thingol won't join? Does Fingolfin ask the dwarves about joining an attack like Maedhros does later?

Is Fingolfin's call for war an inspiration for Maedhros' Union later? What are the differences between Fingolfin's call for attack and the Union of Maedhros?
 
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