Session 6-08: Beren and Lúthien Part 2

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
A few points...

Corey Olsen has stated twice that he finds Daeron's open-ended ending unsatisfying, and he would like to handle his fate differently in Silm Film. So, we have been invited to think of stories to tell with Daeron other than, 'he wanders off, never to be seen again.' No particular stories have been discussed on the podcast yet, so we are at the brainstorming stage.

It is tempting to write Daeron out of the story now that we don't need him any more. Certainly, lack of future roles to play has sent several characters to the chopping block so far. But I think it is worthwhile to consider what role he might have in future stories.

I am not super eager to present suicide as the elvish answer to a broken heart. I would prefer to follow the Aegnor model that Finrod describes in the Athrabeth...he will never marry, because his heart belongs to someone he cannot be with, but he will continue to live his life.

From that viewpoint, the idea that Daeron would be the one responsible for acclimating Dior to Doriath is appealing. We will need a character in that role, most likely. And while Nimloth seems the obvious first choice, she is likely going to be a green elf of Ossiriand in our story. So having Daeron available as a member of the court would be nice. Beleg and Mablung will both be dead by then. Celeborn and Galadriel could be around, but if Galadriel is there, the dynamic would be very different.
 

kanji_d

Member
From that viewpoint, the idea that Daeron would be the one responsible for acclimating Dior to Doriath is appealing. We will need a character in that role, most likely. And while Nimloth seems the obvious first choice, she is likely going to be a green elf of Ossiriand in our story. So having Daeron available as a member of the court would be nice. Beleg and Mablung will both be dead by then. Celeborn and Galadriel could be around, but if Galadriel is there, the dynamic would be very different.
Perhaps we can still have Daeron walk away from Doriath... to the Green Elves, where Beren and Luthien will find him when they move to Ossiriand themselves, which gives him an opportunity to be present for young Dior. If he and our dynamic duo reconcile during this season he can also be another father figure in Dior's childhood and, once the parents are gone and Dior decides to reclaim Doriath, Daeron is available to show him the ropes. Then we can give Daeron a more appropriate death at the Second Kinslaying, as well.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
A few points...

Corey Olsen has stated twice that he finds Daeron's open-ended ending unsatisfying, and he would like to handle his fate differently in Silm Film. So, we have been invited to think of stories to tell with Daeron other than, 'he wanders off, never to be seen again.' No particular stories have been discussed on the podcast yet, so we are at the brainstorming stage.

It is tempting to write Daeron out of the story now that we don't need him any more. Certainly, lack of future roles to play has sent several characters to the chopping block so far. But I think it is worthwhile to consider what role he might have in future stories.

I am not super eager to present suicide as the elvish answer to a broken heart. I would prefer to follow the Aegnor model that Finrod describes in the Athrabeth...he will never marry, because his heart belongs to someone he cannot be with, but he will continue to live his life.

From that viewpoint, the idea that Daeron would be the one responsible for acclimating Dior to Doriath is appealing. We will need a character in that role, most likely. And while Nimloth seems the obvious first choice, she is likely going to be a green elf of Ossiriand in our story. So having Daeron available as a member of the court would be nice. Beleg and Mablung will both be dead by then. Celeborn and Galadriel could be around, but if Galadriel is there, the dynamic would be very different.
Aren't there two different fates for Mablung? There's the one in the published Silmarillion where he is slain in the Battle of the Thousand Caves where the Silmaril is taken by the Dwarves, and another in some of Tolkien's other writing where Mablung survives the Second Kinslaying and makes it to Sirion... where he is presumably killed in the Third Kinslaying.
 

Ilana Mushin

Active Member
I like Mithuin’s account for Daeron’s love for Luthien. I agree he should not be harbouring hopes or intentions at this point of actually marrying Luthien, but be reconciled to their ‘just friends’ (and music collaborators) relationship. I like the idea of him being a mentor to Dior in Doriath later on, and then having a dramatic role in the 2nd Kinslaying (perhaps trying but not succeeding to prevent the kidnapping of Dior’s sons, or trying to prevent the deaths of Dior and Nimloth but being killed also in that encounter - after all, this is the ‘death of Doriath’ event).
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
A few points...

Corey Olsen has stated twice that he finds Daeron's open-ended ending unsatisfying, and he would like to handle his fate differently in Silm Film. So, we have been invited to think of stories to tell with Daeron other than, 'he wanders off, never to be seen again.' No particular stories have been discussed on the podcast yet, so we are at the brainstorming stage.

It is tempting to write Daeron out of the story now that we don't need him any more. Certainly, lack of future roles to play has sent several characters to the chopping block so far. But I think it is worthwhile to consider what role he might have in future stories.

I am not super eager to present suicide as the elvish answer to a broken heart. I would prefer to follow the Aegnor model that Finrod describes in the Athrabeth...he will never marry, because his heart belongs to someone he cannot be with, but he will continue to live his life.

From that viewpoint, the idea that Daeron would be the one responsible for acclimating Dior to Doriath is appealing. We will need a character in that role, most likely. And while Nimloth seems the obvious first choice, she is likely going to be a green elf of Ossiriand in our story. So having Daeron available as a member of the court would be nice. Beleg and Mablung will both be dead by then. Celeborn and Galadriel could be around, but if Galadriel is there, the dynamic would be very different.
Also, why would Lúthien go to Daeron for help after Beren is imprisoned at Tol-in-Gaurhoth? He already betrayed her once, what makes her think that he wouldn't betray her to Thingol again after he'd already proven himself resistant to any relationship between Beren and Lúthien?
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
To hear anything he has to speak to someone and as such be seen by somebody.
Nope.he is an elf, we shouldn't forget that!
To leave "left to be as far away as possible" would mean "to sail".
He obviously doesn't want to go west so east is his only alternative..
This is all is before the War of Wrath - the lands are just not yet peaceful enough for a lone elf to safely roam about aimlessly and survive without ever meeting anyone else.
He is an elf! Safe? No!
You mean he crossed the Blue Montains? Then he would be caught by the Easterlings.
Why?
But where is a believable wild able to support a lone elf's survival which is in the general direction of following Luthien's path? Show me this on the map, please.
Why lands are unsafe? That is no argument! Anything can happen in unpredictable wilderness! We are not talking about densely settled medieval europe here!
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
A few points...

Corey Olsen has stated twice that he finds Daeron's open-ended ending unsatisfying, and he would like to handle his fate differently in Silm Film. So, we have been invited to think of stories to tell with Daeron other than, 'he wanders off, never to be seen again.' No particular stories have been discussed on the podcast yet, so we are at the brainstorming stage.

It is tempting to write Daeron out of the story now that we don't need him any more. Certainly, lack of future roles to play has sent several characters to the chopping block so far. But I think it is worthwhile to consider what role he might have in future stories.

I am not super eager to present suicide as the elvish answer to a broken heart. I would prefer to follow the Aegnor model that Finrod describes in the Athrabeth...he will never marry, because his heart belongs to someone he cannot be with, but he will continue to live his life.

From that viewpoint, the idea that Daeron would be the one responsible for acclimating Dior to Doriath is appealing. We will need a character in that role, most likely. And while Nimloth seems the obvious first choice, she is likely going to be a green elf of Ossiriand in our story. So having Daeron available as a member of the court would be nice. Beleg and Mablung will both be dead by then. Celeborn and Galadriel could be around, but if Galadriel is there, the dynamic would be very different.
Sure! You can do whatever you like.but i do not have to agree with corey and i don't.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
You asked why we are discussing alternative endings to Daeron's story.
Why do we have to give him a defined end? I like open ends...

Would be like adding a line to the song "solitary man".
I was answering your question. Naturally, you are welcome to dislike this proposed change. I don't think there has been a single time we have suggested changing the text of the published Silmarillion that has met with universal approval. This proposed change opens up the possibility for future stories that could be interesting. But you are of course welcome to prefer the story as written - obviously, we are all here because we love Tolkien's Silmarillion.



As for your geography dilemma ... Go south. Taur im Duinath. That is a forest far from the dangers of the north that seems to be seldom visited. Why would Daeron go there? I have no idea. But the location answers the question, at any rate.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Also, why would Lúthien go to Daeron for help after Beren is imprisoned at Tol-in-Gaurhoth? He already betrayed her once, what makes her think that he wouldn't betray her to Thingol again after he'd already proven himself resistant to any relationship between Beren and Lúthien?
Perhaps Daeron seeks her out to apologize, and being convinced of his sincerity, she enlists his help. Also, the news that a prisoner wishes to escape is hardly news, so even if he betrays her again rather than aids her, the worst that happens is...she is still locked up.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I already agreed to the point where i acknowledged that telling daeron's story would most likely be boring on film.

Also i see your, or Corey's points.I am just not convinced.

I feel that the very specific tragedy of the character would be taken out of that story and that would be sad because such an individual fate seems an interesting one to me.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Why lands are unsafe? That is no argument! Anything can happen in unpredictable wilderness! We are not talking about densely settled medieval europe here!
He is an elf but plenty of others are too. Show me the "wild" please on the map where he can get lost in while following Luthien.

Hiding himself in a cave and casting some spells around him - yes, that would work to keep him undetected - but this would be a rational decission which would take some effort and not just wandering around aimlessly.

Also, why would Lúthien go to Daeron for help after Beren is imprisoned at Tol-in-Gaurhoth? He already betrayed her once, what makes her think that he wouldn't betray her to Thingol again after he'd already proven himself resistant to any relationship between Beren and Lúthien?
As I have said before, the first time Luthien was not reporting an intruder. Daeron might even have informed her that if she does not do it then he will. The 2nd time she is not planning anything illegal as such she might rationally not expect him to report on her.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
@Odola i never said anything about getting lost.

2nd. They can talk to rocks, trees...
The rest of the possible untold journey, or one possibility, i already laid out.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Perhaps Daeron seeks her out to apologize, and being convinced of his sincerity, she enlists his help. Also, the news that a prisoner wishes to escape is hardly news, so even if he betrays her again rather than aids her, the worst that happens is...she is still locked up.
I thought Luthien asked for Daeron's help before she gets locked up. She wasn't locked up between Beren departing for Nargothrond and the song battle between Sauron and Finrod, right?
 

Octoburn

Active Member
It was just yesterday for an elf. Not even half a century. ;)
Yeah, yeah, I know. Harry Potter happened to be on tv while I was reading this conversation and I just thought there would be a slight Snape parallel if he was to come back to help, mentor and hopefully not bully Luthiens child after she passes.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Yeah, yeah, I know. Harry Potter happened to be on tv while I was reading this conversation and I just thought there would be a slight Snape parallel if he was to come back to help, mentor and hopefully not bully Luthiens child after she passes.
That would be interesting, especially since we have another vengeful suitor coming to Doriath in Celegorm; Daeron and Celegorm would be a nice contrast.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
However untold, it has at least be possible in our settings.


Rock and trees will not be able to say what happened in cities or buildings.
Animals could. Anyway, i agree such a story would be hard to be told on screen.Inworld however i would insist: Daeron would most likely not necessarily need any people , at last not directly.Also he would be able to survive in pure wilderness, much more likely escape giant spiders or easterlings and much more.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
Just throwing this out there, I once pitched an idea of Sauron (after this defeat) fleeing east and finding a small human settlement and, weakened, being cared for by the people there until he helps them in some small way and reveals a level of power to a select few who then see him as this sort of mysterious magic man. It could become a sort of tentative redemption arc as he explores whether he has the capacity for good and acts as the village shaman and seemingly comes to care for some of them even. Particularly interesting after we’ve seen how hubris has cost him loyal friendships this season. Would make season he’d be questioning all his recent choices. But even as he flirts with the idea of ‘benefiting’ these simple savages, he can’t help but sow decent as he introduces new ways of thinking. Perhaps he urges them to strike out at a neighbouring tribe who pillages them regularly. He encourages them to defend themselves or something, causing a divide between the downtrodden youth who feel the stoic but wise elders are pushovers. Or something with that dynamic that makes his deeds seem plausibly genuine but still murky. Slowly you see Sauron rising in small power. Even his good deeds are corrupted by hubris. It’d be the story of him killing the last dregs of Marion. Perhaps part of why he is away so long from the main narrative is that he truly contemplates a new way of loving. And it’s tragically doomed by his own nature. Anyway, the reason I raise that here is what if Daeron also travels east and becomes part of that story. He may see this as a chance at redemption. As Sauron toys with reclaiming a better self, how would Daeron react. How much would he know of and even recognise this as Sauron? If he did, what would his reaction be? Would he be roped in, hoping that if even Sauron can have a second chance then surely he can? Or would this be a chance to prove his worth and expose him? If he can never know true love, maybe he can have true purpose? Are his actions what cause Sauron to react with volatile force and unearth that old fire? Dunno, just seems like we have to people who depart this story and wander. One never to be heard from again and one emerging much later. Is it implausible their paths crossed. I think that would frankly be a really cool side plot for next season. We can leaved Daeron as wandering away at the end of 6 and the audience can be invited for forget about him until he intersects with ‘hobo druid Sauron’ in 7.
 
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