The Family of Gil-Galad

No I can see the Galadriel problem too. If GG comes through Orodreth, why isn't Galadriel the High King (yeah yeah) instead of him? Just because she's a month's journey inland?
 
Since Tolkien wrote so much about Galadriel you could say that if he wanted her to deal with the issue of maybe becoming queen, he would have written something about it. I think we have to accept that Tolkien didn't include elven queens (I don't say I like it).
 
The point Ruth raises about the effect of marriage is a valid one. In general, the elvish culture seems to be that the bride becomes part of her husband's family, and the kids are accepted to be of their father's heritage. The mother's lineage isn't forgotten about (the special treatment of Finrod and Galadriel by Thingol is on account of their relationship to him via their mother), but the 'Princes of the Noldor' have a lot of Vanyar and Teleri blood that everyone just ignores in favor of calling them Noldor. And so, it would be reasonable to think that, by virtue of her marriage to Celeborn, Galadriel has become one of the Sindar by marriage. Everyone knows she's really a Noldo elf, but...that doesn't mean she'd still be eligible for a Noldo crown (even if the women could inherit).
 
The idea that Fëanor doesn't think of himself as a king (but definitely the leader) after the killing of Finwë works really well with the season 2 ending (epilogue) as it is now written, Fëanor sitting on the throne with the crown in his hands, thinking.
 
That's not in the outline, is it? Or I must have missed it. If Fëanor becomes king, Maedhros really makes a big sacrifice and his brothers might have a problem with that. If the Silmarils are meant to be in the crown, and if someone else than a son of Fëanor is going to wear it, that will make the sacrifice impossibly huge and the brothers will be, well, not happy at all... We need to discuss the king issues with the Professor.
 
We do. Though I'd also say that perhaps Fingolfin gets his own crown. Fëanor's could be captured when he gets mortally wounded. Maedhros could have it with him when he is captured. It could disintegrate in the flame of Fëanor's spirit fleeing his body. There are a number of possibilities.
 
Yeah I guess Fingolfin could have his own crown. And it could make sense if it's because Fëanor's crown is taken or disintegrated when Fëanor dies. But somehow there's something with that solution that doesn't feel perfect. Will there be a discussion about the new crown and why it isn't designed to carry the Silmarils? It would in any case demand a really good reason behind Maedhros decision to not take the crown, (having the inheritance rule that the oldest becomes king is problematic since that would mean we'd get problems with Turgon becoming king later on), and we need to deal with the reaction of his brothers.
 
Convincing people that a crown is just a hat would be difficult given how ubiquitous the meaning of crowns is across human cultures and given the significance of the 'two crowns' scene that ends season 2.

As for Fëanor, there is no doubt in his mind that at the death of Finwë, the right to rule the Noldor is his. Despite the fact that his half-brother Fingolfin is acting king and that he is still technically banished from Tirion. There may be doubts in the minds of other Noldor, though, and Fëanor doesn't waste time on a formal coronation ceremony. Maedhros got his idea of kingship from somewhere ('a king is he that can hold his own'), and Fëanor seems imminently practical and not stuck on pomp and circumstance. If he can march into Tirion and tell everyone what to do (and they listen to him), then what need does he have for titles? He has Fingolfin's word ('you will lead; I will follow') and so...he's good. He has nothing to prove.

I think that we will need to address the issue of Maedhros acknowledging Fingolfin as king sooner rather than later. That will either be the finale of Season 3 or the opening of Season 4, and therefore will have a lot of thematic significance to the show. Do we want to portray Maedhros as acknowledging a truth that everyone who wasn't a die-hard fan of Fëanor already recognized? Or do we want to show Maedhros actually abdicating a crown that is rightfully his for the sake of reconciliation? Either is significant, but they are different stories, and so....we kinda have to know (politically speaking) what is 'right' or expected for the leadership after Fëanor's death. There are allowed to be disagreements (and Celegorm and Curufin in particular *never* accepted Maedhros' decision to acknowledge Fingolfin as High King). But we need to know what the significance of that scene is, so that we can properly build up to it and then have the appropriate fallout afterwards.
 
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I think it should be ambiguous upon Finwe's death whether Fingolfin or Feanor should become king (with numerous proponents for both and no clear consensus until Fingolfin speaks in his brother's favour), but NOT ambiguous upon Feanor's death that it's 100% Fingolfin next, other than a couple hardcore Feanoreans.

The reasons would be different. First, in the case of Finwe's death, it's likely that nobody has even really thought about succession as a thing ever before. Nobody ever dies, why have a detailed plan for when they do? So when the unthinkable happens, there are two sort of obvious choices - Finwe's oldest (and seeming favoured) son, or Finwe's more capable son. You could rationally argue for either one. Second, in the case of Feanor's death, there has been time for people to think about what the process should be. It's no longer unthinkable, and with Feanor it would almost seem inevitable. So now the choice is between the legit crazy Oathtaker son of Feanor, or the (still) more capable Fingolfin. I don't think there would really be any question or doubt, other than some minority among the Feanoreans.
 
There could even be a discussion earlier in the season, between almost any two Exiles you like. "So, when Feanor dies..." "Yeah, Fingolfin will lead us, of course."
 
Keep in mind that the camps are separated fairly quickly - the Shipburning marks a decision on the part of the Fëanorean host to go to Middle Earth without the (larger) host of Fingolfin. They have no reason to suspect that the host of Fingolfin will ever arrive in Middle Earth; they have to assume that they will go back to Valinor.

So, at that point, the entire host of Fëanor dismisses the significance of Fingolfin, and it is 'obvious' that one of Fëanor's sons would lead in the event of his death. I think we will have reason to talk about that, as Fëanor seems quite mad/fey from the point of the Shipburning on (I mean, even more so than he does during the Oath/Kinslaying/Doom of Mandos). Also, Maedhros breaks with his father over the decision of the shipburning and does not take part, showing a rift between the two. It's not a complete split, but it's the type of incident that should have a ripple effect, with people wondering if Maedhros is going to rebel against his father's leadership at some point. If the Fëanoreans have factions, Maedhros surely leads one of them.

And so when Fëanor does die in battle, the only people around to assume leadership are his sons. And...that's not as clear-cut as you'd think. Maedhros does not claim the title of High King, and when he *does* decide to meet with Morgoth's emissary, he does so *without* his brothers. So, was that a decision he made that they disagreed with, or...? Who is really in charge and calling the shots here? Surely the soldiers Maedhros took with him to that meeting were his faction, his most loyal followers - and Morgoth's balrogs slaughtered them all. Maedhros is the only elf who survives that meeting.

And so the other Sons of Fëanor are left behind, being told that their brother is alive but with no proof of that. It is somewhat assumed that Maglor is in charge, but that's not really clear, and the Fëanorean camp seems to be rather confused and lacking in leadership at this time. They don't do much of anything until....

Fingolfin's host arrives, having marched across the Ice. They are pissed off at Fëanor, who betrayed them and left them behind on the shores of Valinor, and they are a much bigger army than the (remaining) host of Fëanor. No one in Fingolfin's camp would want to submit to the leadership of any of the Sons of Fëanor (and people like Turgon are going to be very vocal about this).

So, you have the host of Fingolfin thinking that Fingolfin is the natural leader of all the Noldor, and the host of Fëanor thinking that one of the Sons of Fëanor should be in charge, but maybe having some doubts now that Fingolfin has arrived. So, like any reasonable people, they address this issue by studiously not talking to each other.

Enter Fingon - he realizes that Maedhros is missing, so he goes to find him. Presumably, he just misses him, but there has to be some residual thought of 'together to two of us can fix this mess that our fathers got us into.' And they do. After Maedhros returns, obviously owing his life and freedom to Fingolfin's son, he has a perfect opportunity/excuse to acknowledge Fingolfin's claim to the crown himself. And as Fëanor's eldest son, he immediately quashes the claims of any of his brothers. (His declaration emphasizes that Fingolfin is the eldest of the House of Finwë who is still present - which of course emphasizes his own right to speak for his brothers. Maedhros is the statesman of the House of Fëanor!)



...at least, that is one way of looking at this. Political storylines are not my strong suit, so.
 
Great!

I agree totally, this makes so much sense. When Fingolfin arrives, the Fëanoreans are basically decimated or at least a significantly smaller group than the Fingolfinians. And Maedhros realises (as perhaps some of his brothers do) that there's no chance of Fingolfin letting the ones who burned the ships at Losgar rule him and his people. So the reason 'Fingolfin is the oldest' could be honestly meant or not, it really doesn't matter (but sounds like a cover to avoid talking about the burning).
 
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Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod appears in the published Lord of the Rings, and so Tolkien would hold himself to that. Making Gildor be the son of someone named Inglor is no big deal; it's the 'House of Finrod' when Finrod was unmarried and had no children that becomes a bit of an issue.
Didn't Finrod marry Amarië after he was reincarnated in Valinor? He could have had a child there, Inglor, who went together with Glorfindel to Middle-earth. And Inglor is the father of Gildor Inglorion again. Gildor Inglorion says he is one of the Exiles, so he can't have travelled voluntarily/been sent by the valar to Middle-earth with Glorfindel. His father Inglor travelled from Valinor and Gildor Inglorion was born in Imladris and raised as one of the Exiles.
 
Question: does gildor have the light of aman in his eyes? Does he remember elbereth by person? If yes he wasnt born in middle- earth
 
Question: does gildor have the light of aman in his eyes? Does he remember elbereth by person? If yes he wasnt born in middle- earth


A good question. Prof. Olsen has used the song of the Elves that the hobbits hear as evidence suggesting that at least some of them remember Varda personally. I tend to agree that Gildor was born in Aman.
 
Yes I would sooner say he was born in Valinor than not. So we could actually include him in the exodus.

He should be either a) not related to Finrod but someone of his household, or b) not related to Finrod but a good friend.
 
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