The Family of Gil-Galad
- Thread starter Ange1e4e5
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Well out of the Noldorin communities in Middle-earth, how many had Queens at all? Angrod and Orodreth had wives... maybe Maglor or Caranthir brought their wives to Middle-earth. I think that's it? There's Galadriel and Celebrian, but they were not Queens.
So I think they had to modify the custom pretty much right away, or lose it entirely. And if Finwe and Ingwe didn't get married during the Great March, the office of Mesanie would probably be older than the office of Queen.
Perhaps Idril could be the Besain of Gondolin, but I wonder who would have taught her. Maybe when the Besain dies and her heir doesn't already know how to make lembas, the Ivonwin would teach her heir. Galadriel could have learned by being one of Melian's own Ivonwin.
So I think they had to modify the custom pretty much right away, or lose it entirely. And if Finwe and Ingwe didn't get married during the Great March, the office of Mesanie would probably be older than the office of Queen.
Perhaps Idril could be the Besain of Gondolin, but I wonder who would have taught her. Maybe when the Besain dies and her heir doesn't already know how to make lembas, the Ivonwin would teach her heir. Galadriel could have learned by being one of Melian's own Ivonwin.
Tolkien says it can be given by a high ranking noble woman, there is no need for it to be specifically the queen. Orome was the first person to give the Elves Lembas on behalf of Yavanna.
I still don't get why you claim the High Kingship is a ceremonial title.
The fact that the Noldor often had a Queen missing, already shows that it was not vital for a Queen to be a massanie, the role could easily be covered by a relative of the king.
Tolkien writes in the essay as follows.
'Since it came from Yavanna, the queen, or the highest among the elven-women of any people, great or small, had the keeping of the gift of Lembas, for which she was called the massanie or besain the Lady, or breadgiver.'
Again it's the role that went to the highest ranking elven-woman.
I still don't get why you claim the High Kingship is a ceremonial title.
The fact that the Noldor often had a Queen missing, already shows that it was not vital for a Queen to be a massanie, the role could easily be covered by a relative of the king.
Tolkien writes in the essay as follows.
'Since it came from Yavanna, the queen, or the highest among the elven-women of any people, great or small, had the keeping of the gift of Lembas, for which she was called the massanie or besain the Lady, or breadgiver.'
Again it's the role that went to the highest ranking elven-woman.
Yes Queens are important and the Noldor don't seem to concerned about where their queens come from. If we look at the wives of the Noldor kings then at least half the marriages are to non-Noldor elves.
Finwe-Miriel
Finwe-Indis
Fingolfin-Anaire
Turgon-Elenwe
Finarfin-Earwen
Feanor-Nerdanel
Curufin-Unamed Noldor
Maglor-unknown
Caranthir-unknown
Finrod-Amarie
Angrod-unknown Noldor
Orodreth-Sindar elf
42 percent of the time the Noldor Kings or princes are marrying non-Noldor.
If we add the Noldor princesses it gets worse.
Galadriel-Celeborn
Idril-Tuor
Finduilas-engaged unwedded to Gwindor
Aredhel-Eol
So out of the 16 Noldor royal family engagements/marriages 50% were to non-Noldor spouses. It's only the House of Feanor that seem to consistently marry other Noldor and even then we need to make assumptions for Caranthir and Maglor.
Marrying non-Noldor just does not seem to be a factor with the Finwe's descendants and if it was they got away with it and still maintained power.
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I think that you are arguing against ideas which nobody here ever suggested. IMO, this is getting rather off-topic.
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amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
It can definitely be made more simple. Back to initial principles. If any one particular individual is not chosen to be High King/Queen of the Noldor, there are multiple possible reasons.
1. They are not suitable
2. They are not willing
3. They are not present/available
We don't need to meet all three of those. Any one could do. Galadriel isn't High King because when the spot becomes available she's a thousand miles away across the mountains. Simple. Whether she would have been selected or not otherwise is moot. And any of the others, whether Idril or Earendil or whoever, can easily be rejected for reason 2 if we need an excuse/explanation and don't want it to be reason 1. It leaves Gil-Galad as the last Elf standing who isn't weeded out by any of the 3 reasons.
Really, the only truly tricky one is Fingon -> Turgon, and that one only because there are other actual candidates to be considered and discarded (for those same 3 reasons above), and Turgon is *almost* disqualified for reason 3.
1. They are not suitable
2. They are not willing
3. They are not present/available
We don't need to meet all three of those. Any one could do. Galadriel isn't High King because when the spot becomes available she's a thousand miles away across the mountains. Simple. Whether she would have been selected or not otherwise is moot. And any of the others, whether Idril or Earendil or whoever, can easily be rejected for reason 2 if we need an excuse/explanation and don't want it to be reason 1. It leaves Gil-Galad as the last Elf standing who isn't weeded out by any of the 3 reasons.
Really, the only truly tricky one is Fingon -> Turgon, and that one only because there are other actual candidates to be considered and discarded (for those same 3 reasons above), and Turgon is *almost* disqualified for reason 3.
I feel you are missing the 1st reason. The most obvious and simple reason.
1. They are not in the line of succession.
It's the simplest answer. We don't need to create reasons why Idril rejected the throne, or why Earendil didn't want it or why they couldn't contact Galadriel, though they found her not long after etc.
There are two simple lines of succession that solve the problem without much fuss. I don't get the desire to paint the exiled Noldor of all characters in the story as perfect, when even Manwe the purest character in the story makes mistakes.
You yourself have suggested the idea.
This stimulates the moot that ends up deciding on Gil-galad: by now he's an adult, and most Noldor won't accept an official Queen who is married to a non-elf.
That, and maybe people not wanting Celeborn to be King.
Others like Nicholas Palazzo have also made the argument.
I think that Haakon was on the right track earlier. There could be a substantial minority of Noldor lords who see Galadriel as Queen effectively making Celeborn their King, which they would emphatically not want. She could make this decision so as not to cause a civil war.
I think it's good to thrash out ideas and a decision will be made, which way to progress, but I am not imagining things. The argument has been made that Galadriel could not be Queen, because he was married to a non-Noldor. I have pointed out the Noldor have never really cared to whom their royalty are married.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
The problem is that primogeniture/"line of succession" is a human notion.
The only case of "we know ahead of time who the next King of the Noldor will be, should anything happen to the current one" is Finwe->Feanor. And even that one only happens necause Fingolfin explicitly and publicly signs on. In all the other cases the succession is more complicated, even if a human genealogist could instantly tell you who is next in line.
The only case of "we know ahead of time who the next King of the Noldor will be, should anything happen to the current one" is Finwe->Feanor. And even that one only happens necause Fingolfin explicitly and publicly signs on. In all the other cases the succession is more complicated, even if a human genealogist could instantly tell you who is next in line.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
You could say it started with Elves. Luthien was not asked to rule Doriath when Thingol was killed. The Kings of Numenor used agnatic primogeniture as Silmarien, eldest child of Tar-Elendil, fourth King of Numenor, did not inherit.
Exactly. If we assume that there is a line of succession, then of course some people are not eligible for the throne because of those rules. But...is there? And do the Sindar and the Noldor follow the same rules? If so, Dior as Thingol's heir would be a perfect analogue to Earendil as Turgon's heir. So...probably not.
I do rather like the idea we've come up with that the lords of the Noldor meet and agree on who the next High King will be, without any clear laws of succession in place. For one thing, Tolkien wrote exactly such a meeting, in which Maedhros acknowledges Fingolfin's claim. And Fingolfin's statement before the throne of Manwë can be viewed through that lens as well.
I certainly would agree that whoever the narrator of the Silmarillion is (the historic voice who knows how the First Age ends all along) has certain assumptions about succession. So, it is always possible that some rules of succession did crop up.
But, while it is very easy to follow Finwë --> (Fëanor) --> Fingolfin --> Fingon via rules involving eldest children or the like, it becomes a bit more difficult when we go from Fingon --> Turgon and then later from Turgon --> Gil-galad.
If anything, picking Gil-galad as the 'last man standing' at the very end of the First Age makes more sense to me than just about any sort of rules of succession we might come up with. Because by the time we get to the Isle of Balar...it really is just him. There's no one else left to rule the Noldor, except Celebrimbor, and, well, he's a Fëanorean (even if he did disown his family). Idril, Earendil, Galadriel - none of them are there.
So, yes, it's possible to assume that women aren't eligible, or that half-elven aren't eligible. But it's not necessary, either.
I do rather like the idea we've come up with that the lords of the Noldor meet and agree on who the next High King will be, without any clear laws of succession in place. For one thing, Tolkien wrote exactly such a meeting, in which Maedhros acknowledges Fingolfin's claim. And Fingolfin's statement before the throne of Manwë can be viewed through that lens as well.
I certainly would agree that whoever the narrator of the Silmarillion is (the historic voice who knows how the First Age ends all along) has certain assumptions about succession. So, it is always possible that some rules of succession did crop up.
But, while it is very easy to follow Finwë --> (Fëanor) --> Fingolfin --> Fingon via rules involving eldest children or the like, it becomes a bit more difficult when we go from Fingon --> Turgon and then later from Turgon --> Gil-galad.
If anything, picking Gil-galad as the 'last man standing' at the very end of the First Age makes more sense to me than just about any sort of rules of succession we might come up with. Because by the time we get to the Isle of Balar...it really is just him. There's no one else left to rule the Noldor, except Celebrimbor, and, well, he's a Fëanorean (even if he did disown his family). Idril, Earendil, Galadriel - none of them are there.
So, yes, it's possible to assume that women aren't eligible, or that half-elven aren't eligible. But it's not necessary, either.
It's a human notion in certain cultures and who is to say it's not a Noldor one? It certainly seems to be what they are doing. Dior is regarded as Thingol's heir and seems to be taken as king by all the Sindar. Off topic, but it's interesting that Arwen is referred to as 'Queen of Elves and Men.'
We have three very interesting statements concerning Salic Law and primogeniture.
1. Idril is referred to as Turgon's heir. Now this could imply she intended to inherit the Kingship of Gondolin at least, but other passages seem to imply differently.
2. When Turgon wants goes to war, he wants to install Maeglin rather than Idril as his regent. Idril is older than Maeglin AND an elf from Valinor, but Turgon plans to have Maeglin as his king.
3. Yet it is said that Maeglin loved his mother better, and if Eöl were abroad he would sit long beside her and listen to all that she could tell him of her kin and their deeds in Eldamar, and of the might and valour of the princes of the House of Fingolfin. All these things he laid to heart, but most of all that which he heard of Turgon, AND THAT HE HAD NO HEIR; for Elenwë his wife perished in the crossing of the Helcaraxë, and his daughter Idril Celebrindal was his only child.
Now Maeglin may have been wrong, but it's unlikely Aredhel is wrong about this. She was Turgon's younger sister, who he loved dearly.
I would actually strongly disagree with this. The only time we don't know who the next KIng of the Noldor is going to be is when it comes to Finwe's heir. This is the first time the Elves have ever had to consider the king dying. Before this the line of succession was a completely alien thought.
I think there are quite a few differences between the Sindar and the Noldor, one being the succession. The Sindar aren't just Teleri, they are the Teleri that were most loyal to Thingol and refused to go to Valinor until he was found. All the Sindar lords seem to have a special love for Thingol and for Menegroth. Then the child of Thingol is Luthien, the most loved and revered of all elves. The Sindar seem especially loyal to that family. Even Legolas seems to acknowledge this.
This is probably the meeting where they begin to decide on the succession. There's no succession prior, because there is no need. When Finwe dies, there is a lot of confusion about the next king. Feanor is the oldest son, but Fingolfin had ruled the Noldor, when Finwe was in exile.
I addressed this earlier. It's not really that difficult. There are two options that explain Gil-gald's role.
1. It goes to the oldest male descendant of Finwe. That explains Fingolfin-->Fingon-->Turgon (next oldest)-->Gil-galad
2. Or Gil-galad can be Orodreth's son like it seems was Tolkien's last idea and it Salic Law works perfectly.
The thing is Gil-galad is High-King when Idril and Earendil are still around. He is not the 'last man standing.' As mentioned Idril was older, a child of Valinor and far more experienced. Whilst Earendil is a unique case, a foretold saviour of ME.
In the spring of the year after was born in Gondolin Eärendil Halfelven, the son of Tuor and Idril Celebrindal; and that was five hundred years and three since the coming of the Noldor to Middle-earth. Of surpassing beauty was Eärendil, for a light was in his face as the light of heaven, and he had the beauty and the wisdom of the Eldar and the strength and hardihood of the Men of old; and the Sea spoke ever in his ear and heart, even as with Tuor his father.
'Hail Eärendil, of mariners most renowned, the looked for that cometh at unawares, the longed for that cometh beyond hope! Hail Eärendil, bearer of light before the Sun and Moon! Splendour of the Children of Earth, star in the darkness, jewel in the sunset, radiant in the morning!'
Then there is Galadriel:
"Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years."]
I know it's been mentioned that Galadriel is not around, but they can send scouts to find her. She is not in hiding and she will return to live with Gil-gald in Lindon.
Gil-galad doesn't just get the throne, because there are no other candidates. He gets the throne over the two best candidates the Noldor will ever have except possibly Finarfin and that's not even mentioned the Valinor born Idril.
Only if Gil-galad is named High King before Idril and Tuor (and later Earendil and Elwing) sail off never to be seen again. Certainly, we *could* name him High King at that point. Or we could wait until later. I am in favor of waiting until later, so that it looks as though the Noldor have no more High Kings at the fall of Gondolin.
I think I need to clarify what we are discussing here.
Are we still trying to hammer out what the text is implying? If so then we can keep looking at more details, but I think the evidence strongly implies the Noldor just didn't have High Queens.
Or have we decided we just don't want the Noldor to practice any form of Salic succession? If so then discussing why I think they did is pointless. We need to move on to possible reasons why the succession when they way it did.
Regarding Gil-galad taking the throne after Idril/Earendil had left, I think that only works well if we then wait until after the War of Wrath. It gives a clean break, for the Noldor exiles to establish a kingdom in peace with a new High-King. It seems awkward for Gil-galad to push for the kingship as soon as his main competitors have left.
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Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
So ... yes. It is quite obvious that while Tolkien does give women positions of power and authority, men (well, males...) are always at the top with very few exceptions (Haleth being the only one I can think of off the top). I think that what we are trying to avoid is making sexism a plot point amongst the rulers of the elves. While Tolkien manages to avert this, he is not showing it happen in real time. A TV series production would not have that luxury in 2018. That being the case, I think that having the elf-lords choose a ruler as some sort of aristocratic assembly. This averts us being forced to codify sexism into their culture.
I think the Noldor probably don't have any codified laws about succession*, I think they just pick who they think is best at the time, in the judgment of whoever attends the conclave. Maybe Fingon declared an heir before going into battle, but normally I don't think that happens. Well, Fingolfin could have declared an heir before purposely getting himself killed, but Fingon was such an obvious choice he didn't need to.
*Except that Feanor made such a big stinking deal about primogeniture, which he invented, that it might as well have been a law among the Feanorians. I don't think there was ever a question among them that Maedhros was his heir, despite Curufin being his favorite.
To me, there are only two difficult successions. The first is Gil-galad before Idril. But it doesn't have to be about sexism, and I would rather it not be. It's easy to say she didn't want to become war-leader and refused. It's plausible that some Noldor were uncomfortable with the idea of the King of the Noldor being a human, although they loved Tuor and accepted his unofficial/untitled leadership.
It's also possible that they didn't officially choose anybody and just had Idril, Tuor, Gil-galad, and Earendil as untitled leaders/rulers until after the 3rd Kinslaying. By then, only Gil-galad was available. (Other than Celebrimbor. But he's a Feanorian, and I think he would be keen to avoid even appearing to push Gil-galad aside, after all the things his father did to Finrod and Orodreth. Given his near-obsession with crafts, it's doubtful he had any interest in ruling, anyway.)
If they don't select an official High King right after the fall of Gondolin, then I think the possible events that could prompt them to do so would be
The second difficult one is why Galadriel didn't get the crown after the Last Alliance, which I think she probably wanted and tried to gain. And she was qualified. I think the easiest, simplest answer is that there were just too few Noldor left anymore for the Crown to have meaning. Maybe for 3000 years she thought of herself as the uncrowned Queen and dreamed of somehow reviving her people instead of giving in to their fading and the Dominion of Men.
*Except that Feanor made such a big stinking deal about primogeniture, which he invented, that it might as well have been a law among the Feanorians. I don't think there was ever a question among them that Maedhros was his heir, despite Curufin being his favorite.
To me, there are only two difficult successions. The first is Gil-galad before Idril. But it doesn't have to be about sexism, and I would rather it not be. It's easy to say she didn't want to become war-leader and refused. It's plausible that some Noldor were uncomfortable with the idea of the King of the Noldor being a human, although they loved Tuor and accepted his unofficial/untitled leadership.
It's also possible that they didn't officially choose anybody and just had Idril, Tuor, Gil-galad, and Earendil as untitled leaders/rulers until after the 3rd Kinslaying. By then, only Gil-galad was available. (Other than Celebrimbor. But he's a Feanorian, and I think he would be keen to avoid even appearing to push Gil-galad aside, after all the things his father did to Finrod and Orodreth. Given his near-obsession with crafts, it's doubtful he had any interest in ruling, anyway.)
If they don't select an official High King right after the fall of Gondolin, then I think the possible events that could prompt them to do so would be
- A messenger from Maedhros declaring himself High King, as I suggested above. This would happen while Idril was still available, but we have reasons to pass over her that don't require codified official laws. I don't think the short distance between Balar and the Mouths of Sirion would be an obstacle to a conclave when both groups had ships.
- After the Third Kinslaying, when most/all of the non-Feanorians are living in one place.
- During the start of the War of Wrath, when the non-Feanorians want to pitch in during the war.
- After the War of Wrath.
The second difficult one is why Galadriel didn't get the crown after the Last Alliance, which I think she probably wanted and tried to gain. And she was qualified. I think the easiest, simplest answer is that there were just too few Noldor left anymore for the Crown to have meaning. Maybe for 3000 years she thought of herself as the uncrowned Queen and dreamed of somehow reviving her people instead of giving in to their fading and the Dominion of Men.