Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
This is true, but if that is what is done, will the audience not see sexism as the main issue of her story?
The Family of Gil-Galad
- Thread starter Ange1e4e5
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This is true, but if that is what is done, will the audience not see sexism as the main issue of her story?
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Perhaps she chooses not to take the crown? I have an idea that she knows power is a temptation and this could be a call-forward to being tempted by the One Ring in The Fellowship of the Ring.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
The only problem with that is weakens the impact of her refusal of the One Ring. The reason has to be for one other than the same reason she refuses the Ring.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I get it, I would also rather undermine the dramatic power of her refusal of the Ring.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
What do you suggest?
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I think that Haakon was on the right track earlier. There could be a substantial minority of Noldor lords who see Galadriel as Queen effectively making Celeborn their King, which they would emphatically not want. She could make this decision so as not to cause a civil war.
There was a lot of discussion about Galadriel in her own thread and Marielle suggested that after the Last Alliance, there were so few Noldor left, split between Rivendell and Lindon and Lorien, that the kingship had lost meaning as an institution. The Noldor were fading fast, and certainly not a military power. That is my preference for why Gil-galad was the last. That, and maybe people not wanting Celeborn to be King.
She can’t rule Beleriand from Eriador after Turgon died. But depending on how young Gil-galad was at the time, we could maybe have Idril as Queen until she sails away. Gil-galad being older than Earendil then becomes King.
She can’t rule Beleriand from Eriador after Turgon died. But depending on how young Gil-galad was at the time, we could maybe have Idril as Queen until she sails away. Gil-galad being older than Earendil then becomes King.
If that is what is decided, but it will have knock on consequences.
If the Noldor are willing to have a Queen, then Gil-galad can no longer be from he House of Finarfin and definitely not Angrod's grandson or the succession falls apart. There would be no reason to go to the younger Gil-galad when Idril was still alive and the obvious candidate.
I think the simplest answer might be the best. If some think the reasoning is sexist, then it's the exiled Noldor. They have rebelled against the Valinor and just murdered their kin. They aren't as a group making wise decisions. This could be contrasted with Thingol and the Sindar in general appointing Luthien as the heir, prior to Thingol going to war.
Tolkien had written that there were more Quenya speakers in just Minas Tirith (not even Gondor) than in all the Elvish settlements. There just wasn't enough Noldor around to have a high king.
Not to mention it would seem odd that the Noldor care more than Galadriel's husband is Sindar when:
1. Earwen was a Teleri
2. Gil-galad's mother was Sindar
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
The longer I consider it, the l3ss I like "eldest", in general but especially within a generation, playing a definitive role.
For human Eldest makes all sorts of sense, both in terms of more accumulated experience and our relationship to time and mortality.
But for Elves... How much more accumulated experience does a 6026 year old have than a 5879 year old? And neither one is planning to snuff it any time soon...
I keep going back to what I posted in this thread months ago - they just all come up with a consensus choice out of the eligible and willing "royals" of who is the most suited to the job and give it to them.
Which would require Galadriel to either be unwilling or less suited than Gilgalad when the time comes.
For human Eldest makes all sorts of sense, both in terms of more accumulated experience and our relationship to time and mortality.
But for Elves... How much more accumulated experience does a 6026 year old have than a 5879 year old? And neither one is planning to snuff it any time soon...
I keep going back to what I posted in this thread months ago - they just all come up with a consensus choice out of the eligible and willing "royals" of who is the most suited to the job and give it to them.
Which would require Galadriel to either be unwilling or less suited than Gilgalad when the time comes.
I do like this idea. It means that they never came up with rules of succession, as if each time, they were really hoping their High King would never die. It also means that we don't really have to account for the Fingon --> Turgon --> Gil-galad transition via family trees, which can get a bit...iffy. It could also be because, after the feud between Fëanor and Fingolfin, they're afraid to pit any relatives against each other by designating them "official heir". Rather, if the need arises... We do have the example of Finrod crowning Orodreth when he left Nargothrond. Orodreth is either his only surviving younger brother, or his nephew. But he also specifically spoke to Galadriel's hints about him finding a wife by saying that he would leave nothing for an heir to inherit, so he didn't need to have kids (essentially).
I'm not sure Tolkien took the elvishness of elves into full account when he wrote about their kingship. There do seem to be some underlying assumptions of male primogeniture - eldest son inherits. But perhaps that is just a cursory reading, and he was really plotting out dynastic rules somewhere in the background and we just can't see that.
Regarding Ruling Queens and Galadriel. I would prefer to have the Noldor pass her over rather than have her turn it down. Turning down power is not a thing Galadriel makes a habit of. And, she explicitly includes the idea of queenship in the temptation offered by the One Ring: "Instead of the Dark Lord, you would have a Queen. And I would terrible ..." {Er...paraphrased
} The Noldor could be straight up fixed on the idea that only a male can be High King. Galadriel's desire for a realm of her own could even stem from a desire to get out from under such ideas of leadership. Or, she could be passed over because of her lack of eligibility for some other reason (she's married a non-Noldo, so she's not truly Noldor anymore; or, she's living in Doriath, so she's aligned herself with Thingol, who is not exactly on the friendliest of terms with the Noldor; or she's MIA, as Faelivrin points out). Regardless, deciding 'not her' should be a decision made by others, not by her. It's too early in her story for her to pass on freely offered power like that.
I agree with all of what you're saying, but I did not suggest that she'd refuse to rule freely; she'd be forced to or she'd have to give up her marriage and her friendship with Melian and Thingol. But this seems to be irrelevant. I support the idea that the Noldor never establish rules of succession but use consensus choice, as suggested above.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Knowing that Tolkien was a fan of Saxon culture, I love this, as it reminds me of Witenagemot, or at least, what it should have been. The Witenagemot would be convened to advised the Saxon High King, but also to choose a new one when the old King died.
Okay, question then ... why do they choose Turgon? He's locked away in the Hidden City of Gondolin for most of the First Age. That also counts as MIA. Granted, he did make an appearance for the 5th battle, and that's just about when that decision would have been made. Did Fingon indicate that, if he should fall in battle, look to his brother? Or something?
I bring this up because we see Fingolfin chosen, and it's easy to see Fingon winning the support of, well, everyone, upon his father's death. But Fingon --> Turgon is a tougher one to support.
I could also see there being a gap of time between the death of Turgon and the convening of any meeting in which to choose a new High King. So, if that meeting takes place on the Isle of Balar ... that would explain why Galadriel, Idril, and Earendil weren't eligible; they weren't there.
I bring this up because we see Fingolfin chosen, and it's easy to see Fingon winning the support of, well, everyone, upon his father's death. But Fingon --> Turgon is a tougher one to support.
I could also see there being a gap of time between the death of Turgon and the convening of any meeting in which to choose a new High King. So, if that meeting takes place on the Isle of Balar ... that would explain why Galadriel, Idril, and Earendil weren't eligible; they weren't there.
After the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the forces of Elves and Men were basically broken and the city of Gondolin was the only important stronghold left except for Nargothrond. I guess everyone knew Turgon was there somewhere and alive, so he wasn't missing in action. That could have been enough to choose him as High King, but nobody could know if he accepted that or not... And how was she chosen? I have a feeling that these are problems that can be solved, though. Maybe there is some sort of communication...birds sending crypted messages...moths..?
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Did we decide on whether or not Gil-galad was the son of Fingon or the brother of Finduilas? This would help clean things up. Though it was probably Turgon who got the kingship of the Noldor because Gil-galad was still a child during the Dagor Bragollach and would likely not be full-grown by the time of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Therefore Turgon, as it is not yet decided that Fingon had sons, as Fingon’s next eldest sibling (and only surviving sibling), would get the kingship.