What ever happened in Hildorien?

I am carefully rereading both, though so far i have only finished adanels tale and the appendices notes...

Adanels tale itself is well described, how men are too hasty to make their own experiences and instead take the giver of gifts as their teacher, then he leaves them alone for a long time and after that returns angry and they build the first temple, his friends enslave the other men and those who eventually still do or return to listen to the voice flee at one point.

But again, it is Andreth who claims that the darkening of mens spirits and denying of their true nature weakened and wounded them and made them lose mastery of their bodies.

It was in one of the sketches for the drowning of anadune which claimed that the original design was that men ought to become Valar one day, and after tutelage (by whom? Elves?) , but to enrich heaven, after their governance of earth ( in which they are not yet valar).

In the letters he wrote about the same time, or one year before, he confirms that mortality is a gift to men, not a punishment. And in the notes to adanel/andreth texts he is sincerely worried they might look too much like a parody on christianity, which he thought they should not.



A few more thoughts...

In myth transformed JRRT was concerned that the awakening of man with the sun would be too late and 400 years would be insufficient to bring forth so many varieties of men, so he was thinking about putting their awakening to an earlier time, about the time of the great march of the elves, but of course thos would be the round world version in which in truth sun and moon were there from the beginning.

Another curiosity i ve noticed:

Beor claims the fathers of men remained silent about what had happened in the east. Funny, because with Andreth and Adanel indeed it seems to have been the MOTHERS who had kept among themselves the old tales..
 
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Like the origin of orcs, this topic is one Tolkien found challenging to answer in a completely satisfactory way. By only alluding to it, we can get away with not fully explaining what happened, but we do have to come up with an explanation that works for us.

I think we can take some elements of Adanel's tale and some elements of the version from Lost Tales and make it work.
 
Haerangil said:
But again, it is Andreth who claims that the darkening of mens spirits and denying of their true nature weakened and wounded them and made them lose mastery of their bodies.
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I took that to be a true statement. Partly because somewhere (I forget) he said Orcs are even shorter lived and susceptible to disease than Men, but Dwarves are immune to disease. And the Numenoreans are immune to disease, and live 2-3 centuries each. Tolkien did also say that Finrod was probably right, that Men were supposed to take their intact bodies with them to wherever when they left. Which would be leaving Arda but not what we think of as death now.

Haerangil said:
It was in one of the sketches for the drowning of anadune which claimed that the original design was that men ought to become Valar one day, and after tutelage (by whom? Elves?) , but to enrich heaven, after their governance of earth ( in which they are not yet valar).
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Yeah... @amysrevenge asked what the original plan was, and this is about the only answer I've seen.

Haerangil said:
Beor claims the fathers of men remained silent about what had happened in the east. Funny, because with Andreth and Adanel indeed it seems to have been the MOTHERS who had kept among themselves the old tales..
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Yep, that was my impression too. It seems that even only a few wise women passed down the stories while most were silent about it. Until some Numenorean wrote the Tale of Adanel in an Athrabeth appendix, apparently. Tolkien commented on how sad it is that the Numenoreans knew this story and fell for Sauron anyway... but as he said, many Mortals really are that foolish in real life.

I'm not familiar with the Lost Tales version. I'm going to try reading it.
 
The athrabeth and especially the notes are really interesting! There are so many details i didn't remember...

Basically the Athrabeth is a dialogue between a generous elf and a bitter human and it's about the main difference between both branches of the eruhin race. In detail Andreth and Finrod are talking about two entirely different concepts or ideas of immortality, Finrod insists that men are different from elves and melkor could change matter, but not spirit, while Andreth insists that men were originally created immortal, but admits that her peoples traditions are contradictionary and not detailed on what exactly that means.

I think note #4 makes it clear that "death" in fact IS natural to man, and mannish and elvish immortality are two entirely different things, and Aragorn is an example of how possibly an "unfallen man"would have lived and then died out of free will.


The tale of Adanel is explixitly designed as anumenorean tradition and it is important that the fall of man at Hildorien is mirrored by the fall of the Numenoreans.The Numenoreans were a culture that had been blessed and achieved a healing of a good deal of the damage that had been done to man because of the fall, if they were not by the sense unfallen men, yet they were pretty close to it. And tragedy is they KNEW their ancestors traditions, they HAD the lore about what had happened at Hildorien, or at least the Marachian part or version of that Myth. Yet History repeats itself and they fall again, after the same pattern as their forefathers did.

I think actually that it would be even more vile if Sauron actually USED that tradition among them, he would have implanted doubt on that storys truth in them... maybe the Voice actually WAS the voice of darkness, maybe Melkor WAS the true teacher of man, maybe valar and elves WERE ursurpers and maybe man by nature WAS immortal and the ursurpers held that immortality back from them...

I think the Bringer of Gifts would work in such a way.
 
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Listening to the session now, it's clear that the absolute minimum we need to determine right now is which of our villains need to be out of the picture (in the West) at what times. A lot of the other things we can take months to work out if we want to, and focus back on S4 stories. But, for instance, at this point we have some milestones in the present and near-future timelines where we know where Morgoth is, and where Sauron is, and we would have to work around the both of them whichever path we took for the corrupting of Men.
 
Yes, yes. So let's see:

Rising of the Sun: Morgoth + Sauron in Angband
Rescue of Maedhros and Council of Noldor: ??
Realms of Beleriand founded: ??
Mereth Aderthad: Sauron in Beleriand
Rumors spreading: Sauron in Beleriand?
Dagor Aglareb: I'd prefer Morgoth to be in charge of this attack; I know others prefer Gothmog to cause it
Rumors lead to the Ban: ??
Making Dragons: Somebody (Marie?) said it should be Morgoth making them
Glaurung escapes: ??

Or in a different order:

Rising of the Sun: Morgoth + Sauron in Angband
Rescue of Maedhros and Council of Noldor: ??
Realms of Beleriand founded: ??
Mereth Aderthad: Sauron in Beleriand
Rumors spreading: Sauron in Beleriand?
Rumors lead to the Ban: ??
Dagor Aglareb: Morgoth in Angband?
Making Dragons: Morgoth in Angband?
Glaurung escapes: ??

Since Sauron is managing the spying and rumormongering, it would be easier to come up with a way for Morgoth to do all the work in Hildorien. The other option is that Sauron does the corrupting, either before or after the rumormongering.
Fall of Men after the rumormongering would be easier if the Ban is before Dagor Aglareb.
Fall of Men before the rumormongering would be easier if the Ban comes after Dagor Aglareb.

I'm reading the Lost Tales story now. It has occurred to me more than once before that the Lost Tales are so different from all the later forms of the Silmarillion, both in the actual stories and in the style and feel of the world, that LostTalesFilm could be a separate project all of its own.
 
amysrevenge said:
Listening to the session now, it's clear that the absolute minimum we need to determine right now is which of our villains need to be out of the picture (in the West) at what times. A lot of the other things we can take months to work out if we want to, and focus back on S4 stories. But, for instance, at this point we have some milestones in the present and near-future timelines where we know where Morgoth is, and where Sauron is, and we would have to work around the both of them whichever path we took for the corrupting of Men.
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Gothmog is most likely to be out of the picture. He’s a fighter, not much of a orator or plotter.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Gothmog is most likely to be out of the picture. He’s a fighter, not much of a orator or plotter.
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Yes, and anyone else is too minor. It would be a travesty, for instance, to have Thuringwethil be the Corruptor of the Human Race. She's just a bit player. It's even a stretch for Sauron, really, but we could probably pull that off if we decide to go that way.

It seems like there could be a hole in the timeline for each of Sauron and Morgoth, but they are non-overlapping. One or the other of those two seems to be active in the West pretty much all of the time (unless I'm missing something). It's, as our friend Ned Flanders would say, a dilly of a pickle.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Maybe Morgoth makes a mistake by doing this and has Sauron take up the task of corrupting Men after the Dagor Aglareb, while Morgoth sets to work with the Dragon project?
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It occurred to me that if we were mainly using the Tale of Adanel for inspiration, Sauron can maybe later say "that terrible thing you saw was the Darkness".

One difficulty with just using the Tale of Adanel, and replacing Morgoth with Sauron, is the scene where the Giver of Gifts causes the eclipse and then says (paraphrased) "Bow down and worship me or the darkness will eat you!". To Fall they should be worshipping Morgoth, not Sauron. Possibly Sauron was the tempter and Giver of Gifts (showing a pretty face), and then Morgoth came to demand worship... but how can he hide his terror? Even if he was too white-hot to look at, somehow he would be terrifying instead of beautiful. But maybe at that moment (with an eclipse) the scary glowing figure is less scary than the darkness? I don't know.

I just remembered he has the Silmarils... what if instead of being literally white-hot, he covers himself with jewelled golden armor, even covering his face? Sauron could forge something beautiful if Morgoth couldn't. I mean, take any picture of Morgoth as a giant with evil spiky black armor, but replace the armor with beautiful gold and bling and Silmarils.* But how to make them think this guy with his face covered up is the same guy they saw earlier? Can he mimic the voice Sauron used when tempting them?

Morgoth too bright to look at doesn't work if using the scenes where he shows off his pretty clothes (and bling?), and gives them gifts (they would melt or catch fire or explode).

*The Lord of the Bling.
 
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Faelivrin said:
I just remembered he has the Silmarils... what if instead of being literally white-hot, he covers himself with jewelled golden armor, even covering his face? Sauron could forge something beautiful if Morgoth couldn't. I mean, take any picture of Morgoth as a giant with evil spiky black armor, but replace the armor with beautiful gold and bling and Silmarils.* But how to make them think this guy with his face covered up is the same guy they saw earlier? Can he mimic the voice Sauron used when tempting them?

Morgoth too bright to look at doesn't work if using the scenes where he shows off his pretty clothes (and bling?), and gives them gifts (they would melt or catch fire or explode).

*The Lord of the Bling.
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Ooh this is a gooood point. And it makes it sort of Feanor's fault hahahahahahaha

It sure is easy to forget about the Silmarils, given the title of the project and all. LOL
 
As far as the timeline goes, it's probably easiest for Morgoth to be the one active in Hildorien. We can bring him back in time for dragons, and if he is absent, someone else (Gothmog) could orchestrate the Dagor Aglareb.


On TV, it is very possible to depict someone as glowing with light and not have their clothes catch on fire. The audience accepts that the magical light is a cool heat without questioning it, typically 😉

How calm (or not) the glowing person is gives the audience a cue as to whether or not to expect them to explode. 😉

I do like the idea of the light of the silmarils convincing the early Men that Morgoth is a good guy. Easy mistake to make....

Another option is for Morgoth to use a 'mirage' to talk to the Men. Like the ghosts in Star Wars, he can just appear as a vision/voice without revealing his true form (if we want to go that way).

The Lost Tales are very different in style and overall feeling, but it is possible to adopt portions and ideas from them to incorporate into this project, as long as we adjust for tone and make it more published-Silmarillion-compatible. Thus, we have Tevildo working for Angband, but he's not a giant house cat who feuds with dogs. You can keep details - no reason he can't wear a gold collar at some point! But probably not keep the same role in the story.

We probably won't use the idea of an eclipse (because no round world), but if we *were* to keep that (hey, we have a sun and a moon, so....), we could maybe show the eclipse happening in Beleriand as well, so that when we later flashback, we'll know when that was. Perhaps during the Dagor Aglareb would be a good time for heavenly body shenanigans?
 
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amysrevenge said:
Ooh this is a gooood point. And it makes it sort of Feanor's fault hahahahahahaha
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OMG that is the best. ROFL

I would still rather that the original temptor is Sauron, because he can show his face and be very pretty and human-looking, therefore relateable as a friendly father figure, while wearing some parts of the golden bling armor. After Sauron gets them comfortable with the Giver of Gifts as their buddy who gives them wealth, agriculture, technology, and knowledge, then Morgoth comes back and takes over, while Sauron gets the spying and rumor-mill started...


My point about the Lost Tales, Marie, was that one could make an adaptation that is all Lost Tales, without anything from the later works, and it would really stand as its own separate thing. It would really have its own feel and explore all aspects of the Lost Tales in their own right.

Now I've read the Lost Tales version of the Fall of Men. Ermon's people were Men who sided with Elves over the evil fay Fankil. We could make Ermon the name of the first leader of Beor's people, his father or an earlier ancestor? Nuin could be some dark-elf who was a storyteller, who told the early Edain about the West after they left Hildorien. Fankil could be a servant of Morgoth who sticks around in the east encouraging strife between Elves and Men, while everyone else is fighting Morgoth in Beleriand. Ermon and Nuin would only be mentioned in Season 5, but I guess Fankil wouldn't ever come directly up in SilmFilm. Unless "Fankil" is the Beorian name one of the Dark Lord.

MithLuin said:
On TV, it is very possible to depict someone as glowing with light and not have their clothes catch on fire. The audience accepts that the magical light is a cool heat without questioning it, typically 😉
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I was thinking the gifts would catch fire or explode or melt. If Morgoth is literally white-hot, it's real heat and things are gonna get burnt.
 
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I wonder, is there any way we can stretch the definition of the words saying that Morgoth can't ever take a fair form again? Would it be cheating, or would the audience feel like it is cheating?

Like, maybe he could not ever again appear outside his Tyrant guise in a way that would not be immediately obvious to any Vala or Maia or even Elf. But what about the worldly limits to the vision of Men? Maybe the "skin" he drapes over himself to appear before Men would not work for one hot second on Elves, but works (with the help of the Silmarils!) to cloud the eyes of Men.

"Hey, why does my faithful doggo cringe away from the glowing benevolent all-knowing angel? That's weird..."

(I should add - I have a hard time keeping in my mind the distinction between Morgoth and Sauron when it comes to losing their fair forms, and the details for each.)
 
I really don't like that approach, amysrevenge. I really think Morgoth's hideousness is a matter of his inner evil always showing on the outside. He shouldn't be able to look like a beautiful ordinary human.

Some kind of illusion... but I remember what Faramir said about the arts of the Enemy. "For his works fill the heart with loathing;" I think somehow an illusion made by Morgoth would have a creepy wrongness to it...


What about this:

Rising of the Sun to Rescue of Maedhros: Morgoth + Sauron in Angband
Council of Noldor: Sauron in Angband, Morgoth goes finds the Men
Realms of Beleriand founded: Sauron in Hildorien, Morgoth in Angband
Mereth Aderthad: Sauron in Beleriand, Morgoth in Hildorien
Spying and rumors: Sauron in Beleriand, Morgoth in Hildorien and/or Angband
Dagor Aglareb: Morgoth + Sauron in Angband (Fankil dispatched to Hildorien)
Rumors lead to the Ban: Morgoth + Sauron in Angband
Making Dragons: Morgoth + Sauron in Angband
Glaurung escapes: Morgoth + Sauron in Angband


Edit: Oh, instead of only name-dropping Fankil, he could be one of the doppelgangers under Sauron, and after the rumors are well-established, then he's sent off east to "finish what your master started".
 
Yeah as I was typing it I kept considering deleting haha. You're right, it would be cheating. I think he'd be able to pull off an illusion to fool fallen (but good) Men such as Edain or Numenoreans, as there would be some among them who would be willing to ignore the wrongness in order to hear the message and further their own ambitions. But unfallen Men would be put off by that wrongness.

That schedule has a lot of travel in it, but I think they would consider it to be worthwhile - if they manage to pull of a complete corruption, then they will have hordes of followers that aren't just crummy Orcs. It would be worth the risk of being away from the West for too long, and maybe not keeping as tight a grip on their own plans in Beleriand, to focus all their will upon Men.
 
amysrevenge said:
But unfallen Men would be put off by that wrongness.
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I'm still worried about this part in general by the way... Every scenario I start to construct in my mind for the corruption always at some point begins with a Man who is willing to listen, who is already sort of on the way down on his own. Ambitious, or greedy, or possessed of some other innate longing or discontent that the Enemy capitalizes on. But Unfallen Man shouldn't have any of those qualities. In order to be pushed over the edge, a Man has to already be standing near the edge...
 
Hasty and eager for cool stuff? They were probably hastier than Elves by nature...

I don't think unfallen needs to mean infallible, unable to make dumb mistakes. They're like the Noldor but more naive, naked, and with no education. They aren't inclined to evil, so the evil has to be disguised at first as gifts and knowledge and beautiful useful stuff that makes life prettier, easier, and more comfortable. For a while some people keep asking the Voice questions, and Eru probably does tell them straight up "that giver of gifts is a liar" but they don't have any concept of what "lies" are, they're maybe too naive to imagine trickery. If he's a liar why are his gifts useful and his knoweldge verifiable by observation?

So they aren't all in agreement about whether to use this new technology, but you know what happens when most of society adopts a new tech like cell phones or Facebook, it becomes hard to be the luddite who doesn't use it. Then the Giver of Gifts finds out about the Voice and tells them it's the Voice of the Darkness who wants to eat them. Finally Morgoth comes during an eclipse with the Silmarils on his helm...
 
Just in general then (possibly belongs in the Villains session notes that we haven't had yet), as an outline:

Morgoth goes off to find Men. Finds them, they are terrified. He goes home to reassess.

Morgoth sends Sauron off to the Men in his Annatar guise. He offers them any number of improvements to their lives (bricks? iron? weaving?) but no improved lighting (which is actually a big deal when you don't have it). All gifts, with no direct costs. Perhaps he starts asking questions about why they haven't been shown these things before? He could even ("innocently") reinforce a primal fear of the dark, things that go bump in the night. He primes them for the return of Morgoth, who will come in a time of darkness, bearing great light. Sort of warns them about his appearance, in a way that makes it more impressive and less terrifying. Goes back home.

Morgoth returns to Hildorien, with the eclipse, the Silmarils in the darkness, etc. Men begin to worship Morgoth. This turn again is one that I'm not clear on. It has to happen universally, all at once, right? There can't really be an interregnum period where there are some Fallen Men and some Unfallen Men. There is probably some physical alteration that happens - is it instantly to the Men who are alive, or does it only start with their children? I prefer the latter actually. Physically unfallen but spiritually fallen Men one generation, physically fallen Men the next. Maybe they become physically fallen in that they will age beyond that point where until now they would pass on to the next life, and become elderly. Morgoth leaves again.

Morgoth and Sauron are busy now in Angband, but feel like they've got Men under control. They sent a lesser lieutenant (Fankil?) East to watch over things. Something goes wrong under Fankil's watch (I'd like it to involve good Avari, possibly with some intervention from Ulmo?), resulting in a schism, with the Men who will become the Edain heading West. Things do not look good for poor Fankil. I have this vision of the last living physically unfallen Man, elderly (which was unheard of pre-Fall), repenting and playing a role in the genesis of the Edain. I would like it if a very young Beor overlapped with that very last remaining of the Men who Fell, but it's not a hill I'd die on.​

That more or less can be meshed up with the schedule of when they need to be in Beleriand.
 
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