What ever happened in Hildorien?

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Today's session (4.09) focused almost exclusively on the storyline for the Fall of Men in Hildorien. Some decisions where made, and some other ideas were left up to interpretation. While not every suggestion from the outline here was adopted, it was certainly discussed and many elements of it made it in to the storyline. Thank you to everyone on this thread for your contributions! It made for a very interesting discussion.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Suggestion for the Priestly-superhuman-cast type: since they die, maybe they try to maintain an illusion by having the replacement have a strong resemblance to the original, but there is a slight difference between one generation and the next?
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Hildorien:

I like the idea of the Witch King being descended from Kingpriest Fankil and/or the priest caste of Hildorien. I had always assumed him to be of the Black Numenoreans, but I kind of like it better if he is of other heritage.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Hildorien:

I like the idea of the Witch King being descended from Kingpriest Fankil and/or the priest caste of Hildorien. I had always assumed him to be of the Black Numenoreans, but I kind of like it better if he is of other heritage.
Maybe he's a mix, with descent from Numenor and part of the priest caste? Or an outright relation of the Edain? Perhaps Sauron gifted him one of the Rings of Power for this heritage?

Judging by his height (he's described as the tallest of the Nazgul) he's likely a Numenorean.
 
Last edited:

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Hildorien:

My main concern with the outline of events as proposed in the session is that it's not horrible enough (yet). I don't see anything in there that is so awful that Beor and the others would shudder and refuse to speak of it, or that they would culturally decide to forget about. As much as I dislike thinking about "bad stuff", we need some bad stuff. Human sacrifice, slavery, wanton cruelty. Has to be part and parcel of the way the priest caste runs things.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Hildorien:

My main concern with the outline of events as proposed in the session is that it's not horrible enough (yet). I don't see anything in there that is so awful that Beor and the others would shudder and refuse to speak of it, or that they would culturally decide to forget about. As much as I dislike thinking about "bad stuff", we need some bad stuff. Human sacrifice, slavery, wanton cruelty. Has to be part and parcel of the way the priest caste runs things.
I say human sacrifice and slavery, which we could see in flashback during Season 5 when Finrod speaks with Beor. These things are repeated when Sauron corrupts the Numenoreans.
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
There was a reference to 'the night is dark and full of terrors' in that discussion; burning people at the stake is generally considered an awful thing to do. I know we're *not* trying to channel Game of Thrones here, so it doesn't have to be that exact thing, but seeking after immortality by killing other humans does seem to be the direction that cult is headed in. At the very least, they're likely to punish dissent harshly.

We pretty much avoided the entire theological discussion of what constituted the Fall and what the effects of the Fall would be. Since we'll likely be showing this in snippets, it's quite possible to leave out and merely imply the 'darkest' chapters of the story.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
There was a reference to 'the night is dark and full of terrors' in that discussion; burning people at the stake is generally considered an awful thing to do. I know we're *not* trying to channel Game of Thrones here, so it doesn't have to be that exact thing, but seeking after immortality by killing other humans does seem to be the direction that cult is headed in. At the very least, they're likely to punish dissent harshly.

We pretty much avoided the entire theological discussion of what constituted the Fall and what the effects of the Fall would be. Since we'll likely be showing this in snippets, it's quite possible to leave out and merely imply the 'darkest' chapters of the story.
Indeed, the Melkor-worshipping cult on Numenor makes human sacrifices, and this includes political opponents since many of the Faithful were sacrificed; Elendil himself narrowly escaped capture and being sacrificed.
 

Zephen12

Member
It's been a long while since I've contributed, but I must say I liked the Professor's comments on Morgoth's first interactions with humanity focusing primarily on his voice and the light of the Silmarils. As Verlyn Flieger eloquently details in Splintered Light, the concepts of voice and light are very intimately connected. Additionally, they are they are basic components of the Divine, which for our purposes would be Iluvatar. Having Morgoth reveal himself by voice and light would be consistent with his attempted supplanting of Iluvatar's presence in Middle-earth.

I am quite reluctant to show much of Hildorien at all, though I follow the Professor's logic that we should at least be aware of the movements of Morgoth/Sauron. Regarding the worst of the "bad stuff" that causes Beor & Co. to depart, I think we should not show it but always have the human tellers of the tale cut themselves off, or if a flashback, have the flashback end abruptly with some significant imagery (sudden shadow and rushing/piercing sound?). However, I would not want viewers to think that we are avoiding the depiction of the worst in order to create suspense and that we plan to make a big reveal later in the series. Therefore, we could have a knowing elf say something to the effect of "and they will never tell all that has happened, and we will never know the full of it." Actually, perhaps Melian would be good for such a comment.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Is someone willing to summarize, please, for those who couldn't be at the podcast? What did they decide? I'm particularly anxious whether they are getting rid of Sauron being the temptor in spite of Morgoth being too hideous to look at, and not sexy at all.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
So how do we depict Morgoth tempting them when he's so terrible and hideous to look at that everyone who sees him is immediately terrified? We can put Morgoth in the golden armor that covers up his face, but he's still going to be a figure of awe and some fear.

He starts with just speaking while hiding so they can't see him? He has to be seen at some point. I think to succeed the temptor needs to be somebody pleasant-looking, and "relateable" (possibly with a human face). A mask shaped like a human face still isn't a real face, it won't have facial expressions and Morgoth can't even show his actual eyes.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
So how do we depict Morgoth tempting them when he's so terrible and hideous to look at that everyone who sees him is immediately terrified? We can put Morgoth in the golden armor that covers up his face, but he's still going to be a figure of awe and some fear.

He starts with just speaking while hiding so they can't see him? He has to be seen at some point. I think to succeed the temptor needs to be somebody pleasant-looking, and "relateable" (possibly with a human face). A mask shaped like a human face still isn't a real face, it won't have facial expressions and Morgoth can't even show his actual eyes.
Perhaps a human-like mask that’s just... off?

I’m not suggesting that Morgoth looks like Michael Myers, but the concept of a mask shaped like a human face sounds similar.
 
Last edited:

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
It won't. That doesn't make sense. Tolkien said several times that captives could see his face and eyes.

This is why I said that it doesn't make sense for the temptor to be Morgoth. There is no way to make him look appealing or pleasant or sexy or human or loveable or trustworthy. The golden armor-with-silmarils is a plausible way out only when Sauron has already got them on his side, and they have to choose between Morgoth and the darkness covering the Sun.
 
Top