Do we need to show the Corruption of Men? We could just have allusions to it with Sauron and Gothmog arguing about where Morgoth is and Morgoth showing up before FA 60.
Perhaps the Avari inspire the Edain to go westward to Beleriand to seek out the Valar?I don't know. I still am NOT convinced about this whole super-human thing, then again i think those men, whatever their nature is, are not really learned ore wise in anyway. They kind of listen to the burning briar and are happy, but then somebody much like themselves , only far greater and more powerful, shows up and teaches them doubts... i think that sort of COULD work, but i doubt it would work without the Dark elves playing at least SOME part in it.
I guess at last SOME men, those who would later rebel should at one point meet Avari and be inspired by them in one way or another.There needs to be enmity and friendship between both at an early point, not only after men are already corrupted..
The Edain are maybe rebels from the Morgoth worship, as foreshadowing of Numenor?The Edain is part of my problem with how to tell this story. Tell a story of this devastating fall, where the primary practical output of the story is the AWESOME three kindreds of the Edain.
Hence why they’re deviant from the Morgoth worship. Some of them chose to turn away from the worship of Morgoth, but the damage was done.Yes, but they have to have already fallen also. It's not just the bad Men who fall, it is ALL of them. Every single one. Babies, grandmas, the whole works.
Ultimately that's my problem. I think the only thing that it could be are lies - by all the things I've read about the subject (Arda-wise, I mean, not talking about Earth here), they are objectively, categorically worse off than they were before their fall. So it can only have been lies that brought them down - any truth would only work in the other direction. But what sort of lies? What thing that they don't already have could they be promised? I guess it would have to follow along with the Eden story and be knowledge, wouldn't it? "I will complete your understanding of the world in a way that your God refuses to", that sort of thing.What could Morgoth (or Sauron) say or do to convince them that what they really want out of life is to follow the dark god? Do we want to convey some other temptation?
Maybe Morgoth convinces them that Eru does not care about them, otherwise why are they much weaker and more unhealthy than Elves, and that he, Morgoth, can make them worth something?Ultimately that's my problem. I think the only thing that it could be are lies - by all the things I've read about the subject (Arda-wise, I mean, not talking about Earth here), they are objectively, categorically worse off than they were before their fall. So it can only have been lies that brought them down - any truth would only work in the other direction. But what sort of lies? What thing that they don't already have could they be promised? I guess it would have to follow along with the Eden story and be knowledge, wouldn't it? "I will complete your understanding of the world in a way that your God refuses to", that sort of thing.
That’s what I was thinking of, that the Men would be persuaded to distrust and resent the Elves, make them think that Eru didn’t care about Men.Ah! Yes the envy of elves is something that Sauron will use at Numenor, and I like the parallel with the fall of the Noldor - learning about something new allows the one telling you to paint the picture however they want, so trying to get the (new) Men to distrust the Elves they haven't even met yet is certainly a Morgoth move! And whatever knowledge they have of Eru, the fact that Eru hadn't told them about elves yet looks suspicious, just the way the Valar not telling Elves about Men would seem (to the Elves). I think we have to be very careful about that - Eru doesn't makes mistakes - so it's possible that the Men *were* primed to meet other beings like them...but they meet Morgoth, not Elves, and well....
The Edain can be those Men who, after the Fall, actually meet elves (Avari) and realize that these can be their allies, not their enemy, and listen to them when they tell them of a land in the West..... Those who became 'true believers' in the cult Morgoth (or Sauron) sets up would shun contact with Elves as hateful. And those completely under Morgoth's sway would become fodder for breeding more orcs.
Eventually we'll have to figure out whether it's more important for the Men to fall as the direct result of Morgoth's actions, or if it's more important to have a conniving beautiful tempter around to orchestrate their Fall. Either way could work (especially as we aren't showing this), but we lose something with either choice. If we go with Morgoth, we lose the idea that it was a devious deceit that caught them off guard, a fair-seeming messenger whose lies didn't sound like lies. If we go with Sauron...we have an 'indirect' Fall-by-Morgoth, thus showing that even a lesser Maia is capable of corrupting Men without any innate Vala-power being used. We could try for both - have Morgoth manage some kind of glamor or vision/projection that talks to the Men, concealing his dark form. Or we could have Morgoth imbue Sauron with power, so he uses Morgoth's own corrupting force to achieve his task. Or we could have Morgoth find Men and Sauron corrupt them (or vice versa). Or some other variation on these options.
How do you propose making the Edain different?I have only told you what Tolkien explicitly said about Unfallen Men being physically and psychologically different from fallen humans today. I did not make up any of it.
@Haerangil and @amysrevenge I encourage you to read the Athrabeth and the Tale of Adanel. You won't understand what I'm talking about if you have never seen the book I am referring to. The Tale of Adanel is perfectly plausible, and I wish you would not dismiss it out of hand without reading it. If you aren't able to get a copy, would you please at least take me at my word and believe me when I say that Tolkien wrote it? I am willing to summarize it if you need me to.
Haerangil, most of what I posted is from the Morgoth's Ring (especially Athrabeth, Tale of Adanel, and Myths Transformed) and from Vinyar Tengwar (the Notes on Ore). Only a little is from Letters and Sauron Defeated. I did not make up any of what I wrote, I promise. Every single thing I said is from Tolkien himself.
For Beor's parents, bear in mind that the Men fell in the first 20-60 years of life, before anyone had died, and their lifespans immediately were reduced to less than 100 years. Several generations would have passed between that and Beor.
About Elves, this story happened before Men met Elves! That was an important part of the Tale of Adanel actually.
As in, how do they break away from the other Men who worship Morgoth and start heading westward to Beleriand?What do you mean Ange1? Different from whom?