Balrogs

Fell Critter said:
maybe one of the things that makes Balrogs so dangerous could be the extent that they surround themselves with fire and shadow, similar to the way that the white walkers in GoT are sometimes accompanied and concealed by blinding snowstorms - like walking infernos, or clouds of black fog, but swift as the wind, capable of sweeping through and enveloping enemies. while they could fight exposed, I like to imagine that they could conjure these storms at will, or even become the storm itself... they'd make incredibly effective cavalry if they had those kinds of abilities.

to even be able to fight something like this would require getting past the fire and the unlight (which in addition to devouring light could possibly be a poisonous miasma, or at the very least have a demoralizing effect, or even crippling terror or despair). without some kind of magical protection, not to flee would be suicide

I dunno if that's supported anywhere, but it would be cool anyway - not to mention the ability to shape fire or shadow into weapons, and who knows what else
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I have said elsewhere that Melkor uses balrogs and trolls like tanks on the battlefield. He needs them to break the lines of heavy infantry that the Noldor are capable of deploying.
 
Wozld we eventually want a separate thread foe military tactics?

The first epic battle scenes will aüpear soon in the series..
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
I have said elsewhere that Melkor uses balrogs and trolls like tanks on the battlefield. He needs them to break the lines of heavy infantry that the Noldor are capable of deploying.
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it would be fascinating to see the kind of magical defenses the Noldor could come up with, to combat this...

when thinking about the Elves, I recall every crazy thing I've ever heard said about faeries, which sometimes bleeds far into the kind of spatio-temporal manipulation that might also be attributed to advanced alien technology.

while the Elves surely lack anything approaching the power of the Valar, or even the Maiar, there is still a lot that could be done with enchantment. of course it wouldn't do to get carried away with the possibilities, because you never want to upstage the plot, or change the whole nature of the thing; but I'm given to wonder just how down-to-earth the Elves were actually meant to be - nevermind what this says about the Valar

to stay on topic, though, I can only imagine that strong warding spells would be essential to surviving combat with a Balrog, and maybe some elemental magic of one's own, which might have been acquired in the bitter cold of the north
 
The speed and strength of the elves must be formidable, and the enemy has basically two ways to deal with this: numbers and size. Orcs will come in great numbers, a flood of attackers that pushes the elven defensive capacity to its limits. Balrogs and trolls (well, there will also be dragons), as Nick says, are like tanks that, especially when they are more than one or two at a time, can break the elven lines quite easily. The fact that we know of the few moments that balrogs die in combat while we also know that they are present in more battles speaks for itself. They are effective killing machines. They kill a lot of elves. This means that the common elf, noldorin or not, will probably not have a special defense or armour. This will have to be something the Gondolindrim develop, as Nick has argued all along but I for one has sometimes forgotten, just within Gondolin. It probably hasn't got so much to do with defense, however, but probably more with attack. So I'm thinking, either it is about knowing something about the balrogs (like knowing about Smaug's soft spot), or it's some technology that breaks through into their bodies - and this is what we've been talking about all along. The knowledge about soft spots wouldn't carry on to Gandalf using Glamdring on Durin's bane (but we might want that defeat to be a result of Olorin's own power, or Narya?). So whatever Maeglin learns, it's some technology, some smithing thing. And maybe it's the inclusion of some alloy, something that also reacts by glowing blue.
 
if Maeglin is the source of the set of weapons recovered in the Hobbit, Glamdring being Turgon's own sword and all, it could very well have been effective against Durin's Bane, and might explain the white glow...

this enchantment in itself is a kind of ward, and would be very useful for footsoldiers attempting to track down Sauron's spies in the mountains and caves surrounding Gondolin - you might even play this up as the origin of Hot and Cold/Hunt the Thimble. on the other hand, it seemed that these particular weapons were very special, so... who knows

but bearing in mind how the gifts of Galadriel to the Fellowship were enchanted - the vial, the rope, and the cloaks especially - I only imagine that many of the things made by Elves, regardless for whom, are made with more art and care than mortals are able to reproduce, and probably have one kind of enchantment or another... in fact the cloaks are an excellent comparison maybe, because if they can be designed to conceal from 'unfriendly eyes', how much simpler would it be to protect from fire, or frost, or even physical blows - like mithril mail for instance, very light yet very strong
 
and yet I still think it would be spectacular to see the sheer effect of Elven charisma, in the form of elemental conjuration, telekinesis, words of power, etc
 
Fell Critter said:
I only imagine that many of the things made by Elves, regardless for whom, are made with more art and care than mortals are able to reproduce, and probably have one kind of enchantment or another...
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this is not to say the average Elf would be prepared to face a Balrog, however
 
Hmm.. Words of power - yes! Telekinesis - no!

Elemental conjuration? Maybe in a subtle way.

Elves - and only some of them - can sing magical songs, play magical , instruments, summon vision, dreams, illusions, heal, maybe influence weather to some degree nd some have powers of prophecy. All are artists and craftsmen with magical genius. And many have superhuman will and endurance.. But i don't see them summon spirits or fireballs or hail of ice...
 
In Tolkien's world, the supernatural seems to just mean....even more natural. So, things at a fundamental level, the most treeish tree to ever tree and that sort of thing. And so, yes, words of power are a thing, because speaking makes it so on some level. The more elemental a character is, the more likely they are to be able to conjure a situation into being just by saying so. But...there are limits. We don't want too many magical spells being flung around, nor do we want your average elf coming across as a sorcerer.

Faerie enchantment works best on non-faeries, of course. So, the illusions might not do much against other elves, but would fool mortals or orcs. And certain elves and families of elves should be more gifted at this than others. Galadriel and her brother Finrod - they can make magic happen. Random elf of Rivendell? Probably not so much.

Prophecy/vision/dreams is another realm of non-combative magic that we will be portraying quite literally on the show - we're going to see the dreams and visions, hear the prophecies, etc. So, some sense of portents and magic isn't out of place with the elves. But lets not overdo it, nor am I looking for any 'wizard duel' scenes.

Also, keep in mind that the hosts don't want to explicitly answer the 'magic or technology?' question, so things should really be left open to interpretation. Our weapons makers make really great swords, but whether or not they are *magic* swords shouldn't be super clear (well, except for the glowing blue ones).
 
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Well there are some conjuration and magic duels in tolkien... Finrod vs sauron, or luthien vs morgoth are two famous examples. And beleg does conjuration/ summoning - in a way - with his whetting spell.

But those are acts of magic which stand out. These elves are magicians of far above average skill even by elven standard. And as such it should appear in the series... I love all three examples of spell chanting/ magic songs ... But they are not very typical in tolkien, those are elements pf true archaic magic he does not very often.

I'm not quite sure about the illusion thing though. Finrod does msgically change the likeness of him and his company to that of orcs... But is it truly shapesjifting here or is it illusion- weaving? Personslly i tend more towards illusion than physical shapeshifting...

Or Melians dance and song with which she creates her girdle... it is not illusion per se but... something else , yet it is still fairy magic and it does not only work against elves and men but also explicitly balrogs and Melkjor and sauron themselves..
 
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Haerangil said:
Hmm.. Words of power - yes! Telekinesis - no!

Elemental conjuration? Maybe in a subtle way.

Elves - and only some of them - can sing magical songs, play magical , instruments, summon vision, dreams, illusions, heal, maybe influence weather to some degree nd some have powers of prophecy. All are artists and craftsmen with magical genius. And many have superhuman will and endurance.. But i don't see them summon spirits or fireballs or hail of ice...
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this is pretty much what I meant - I throw the word telekinesis around, but I'm not at all referring to Jedi object-levitating abilities... more like very strong animal magnetism. like limited force projection, which could go hand-in-hand with elemental conjuring (a gust of wind, or a flurry of snow or sparks, for instance, coinciding with words or action in a way that could almost seem natural, if not for the sheer improbability of it). it shouldn't be anything on the level of Harry Potter, but even Gandalf comes close to shooting fireballs... it would be a fine line to walk, I grant

powerful destructive magic in general is more aligned with the methods of the enemy, however... to whatever extent they might be able to make use of it
 
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on the other hand, I could easily imagine some Elves displaying strong elemental affinities (visibly - in their clothing, their aura, their creativity, or their attacks), although I don't currently have anyone in particular in mind for that... but after enduring the ice of the north, I have to imagine some of the Noldor making the cold a part of themselves, in a sense - in the same way that many found themselves at home in the darkness of middle earth

I don't know if I'm making sense... but I get the impression that surviving these things, to have them in one's past, in spite of the certain shame, there might also be a kind of pride, and a source of power in it

like I wouldn't put it past a powerful Elf to conjure a blizzard, or a thunderstorm, any more than I would put it past a wizard
 
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the telekinesis in PJ's showdown between Gandalf and Saruman, for instance: knocking each other down was one thing, but spinning Gandalf around and slinging him up toward the roof - it looked tacky, and I wish they hadn't done it. I'd have forgiven them going more Dumbledore vs Voldemort there, tbh - but only because they're wizards. wizards gotta be wizards... although I am reading loud and clear on 'no wizard duels'

I love the notion of real magic, I like to think about it, categorize it, and imagine how it could work... but I also have a very specific notion of what it should look like. depending who's using it (that is, the power they have to put into it), I think it could be very spectacular; but generally speaking, I'm all for subtlety myself. like special effects, the best magic is invisible - it does what it's supposed to do, and only makes a show of itself if the spectacle is the point. of course, illusion is entirely about spectacle.

has anyone written out a Balrog duel yet? I can't help being curious as to how that might go... reckon that's why I keep posting in here
 
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I felt saruman vs gandalf was an awful scene... I'd like to forget about it completely. I'm kind of divided about the white council vs necromancer duel though... It was nicely done, but somehow it didn't feel right!

Balrog duels we should see a lot, and most of the time the balrog will win. Balrogs are an issue... As fire elementals they do have magic abilities of shadow and fire shaping elves do not have...

As an elf: what do you do against such an enemy? Turgon's magic in gondolin was strongly based on him being subtly backed up by ulmo... The cloaken- shield of gondolin even works a bit like melians girdle. I think an elf magician who can count on the support of ulmos powers in the waters does have better chances.. And indeed two of our balrogs will die in gondolin - and its no need for sauron to show out the balrogs weakness to waters, as worshipers of ulmo the gondolindrim are already quite aware of this.
 
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Haerangil said:
I felt saruman vs gandalf was an awful scene... I'd like to forget about it completely. I'm kind of divided about the white council vs necromancer duel though... Is was nicely done, but somehow it didn't feel right!
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The Saruman-Gandalf scene was one of the scenes I disliked most in the PJ movies. I liked the Gandalf-Necromancer scene in the second Hobbit movie but disliked the White Council scenes.


I would feel very surprised if an elf conjured a whirlwind, to be honest. I can't really explain why but it just feels like it would make them look like demigods or something. They can do spectacular stuff, but... If you think Legolas running on falling stones looks bad, well... I guess I'd like to keep the door closed to D&D...
 
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Well, I think that Elves are about Captain America in their physical abilities. The most powerful mentioned in-text appear to be Finarfin's offspring, such as Finrod and Galadriel, who have telepathy.
 
I believe that for example elven mariners could influence wind and waves... To a degree and with the blessings of ulmo and manwe.But not in ways of combat magic. I'd like to avoid that kind of things... Even the more powerful spwlls in the legendarium are about things like power, fear, sleep, stunning, forgetfulness, dumbness, encharming, madness...but i can't remember storms or fireballs- apart from gandalf
 
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