Balrogs

In 'Civil War', Spiderman whines that Captain America's shield does not obey the laws of physics. He's not wrong, and it was tossed in as a joke, but Cap isn't *supposed* to be able to do magic. Cap can't fly; he just does acrobatics. He's meant to be super strong, and the shield can withstand anything because it's made of vibranium or whatever, but it really is meant to behave as a physical object that bounces off things and is subject to trigonometry and gravity :p

Unlike Thor's hammer, which clearly *is* magical, and comes to him when he calls it, flies around corners, and does other seemingly impossible things.

Superhero fight scenes typically involve a lot of 'knock everyone down,' because the good guys aren't really supposed to kill everyone. We're going to have a lot of full scale battles. More battles that bar fights. And so - deadly intent is implied from the beginning. We should be going more for Braveheart than Avengers here. (Even if there is some latent magic involved.)

I offer the difference between these two elevator scenes:

Captain America is joined in the elevator by a lot of surprisingly burly guys in Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

Hellsing's Alucard checks out of a hotel in Rio.

Obviously we're not going to have swat teams or guns (or elevators) in our story. But there's going to be some gore. Balrogs would like annihilating their enemies. Gothmog kills Fingon, and then Fingon's body is trampled (whether by balrogs or trolls or what isn't entirely clear, but still). It's...going to be ugly and brutal.

The only elf who is going to survive an encounter with a balrog is Maedhros, because the goal there was to take him captive, not kill him. I mean, okay, Fëanor doesn't die on the spot, either, but he is mortally wounded, so. Everyone who kills a balrog dies in the attempt....so we can show some deadly attempts where the balrog survives, if we want to.
 
Fell Critter said:
the telekinesis in PJ's showdown between Gandalf and Saruman, for instance: knocking each other down was one thing, but spinning Gandalf around and slinging him up toward the roof - it looked tacky, and I wish they hadn't done it. I'd have forgiven them going more Dumbledore vs Voldemort there, tbh - but only because they're wizards. wizards gotta be wizards... although I am reading loud and clear on 'no wizard duels'

I love the notion of real magic, I like to think about it, categorize it, and imagine how it could work... but I also have a very specific notion of what it should look like. depending who's using it (that is, the power they have to put into it), I think it could be very spectacular; but generally speaking, I'm all for subtlety myself. like special effects, the best magic is invisible - it does what it's supposed to do, and only makes a show of itself if the spectacle is the point. of course, illusion is entirely about spectacle.

has anyone written out a Balrog duel yet? I can't help being curious as to how that might go... reckon that's why I keep posting in here
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So, there is some textual evidence to support what you are talking about, though not a lot. Elrond uses the river to attack the Nazgul. And Gandalf literally force-pushes a sword out of someone's hand in Minas Tirith.

But these are rare cases, and one of them is a case of a Maia.
 
Both Cases as i believe Gandalf & Elrond co-worked the magic river-horses...

I have started a collection of quotes about magic throughout the HoME Books. One Day i'll post that as a word document. So far I'm done with "Spells". Next comes "Magic".
 
Elrond's control over the river *could* be linked to the Ring of Power on his hand. (Though it is the ring of air, not water.)
 
Haerangil said:
Both Cases as i believe Gandalf & Elrond co-worked the magic river-horses...

I have started a collection of quotes about magic throughout the HoME Books. One Day i'll post that as a word document. So far I'm done with "Spells". Next comes "Magic".
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Gandalf's involvement in the river attack seems to have been mostly aesthetic in nature rather than functional.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Well, I think that Elves are about Captain America in their physical abilities. The most powerful mentioned in-text appear to be Finarfin's offspring, such as Finrod and Galadriel, who have telepathy.
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Apparently a lot of elves have telepathy, and its use by elven bards to conjure mental images of what they sing about is mentioned in The Lord of the Rings. Galadriel and Finrod stand out as being such amazing telepaths that they're almost comparable to lesser Maiar. This, I think, is why Finrod can cast an illusion that makes him and his companions look like orcs, and last for a few minutes in a magical duel with Sauron. I don't think that was physical shapeshifting. Finrod almost pulled off a universal translator effect on the first Edain he met (though he did have the advantage of semi-familiar etymology as well) and Galadriel can probably accomplish telepathic feats rather more impressive than tempting the Fellowship.

I do not think anything more than that should come out of Elves. If you look at The LotR and at Beren and Luthien, and consider that Finrod, Galadriel, and Luthien are better at this than other elves, it's clear that there's no throwing of fireballs or snowstorms, or controlling the weather. Nor controlling rivers without a greater Ring of Power (or being a Maia).

Likewise, no other elf should craft "magic" artifacts as impressive as Feanor's silmarils and palantiri.

As for killing Balrogs, I hope that this advantage will not be so great that it diminishes the heroism of Glorfindel and Ecthelion. I think their success should mostly be due to their valor and self-sacrifice, and in Ecthelion's case a fountain blessed by Ulmo.
 
Faelivrin said:
Likewise, no other elf should craft "magic" artifacts as impressive as Feanor's silmarils and palantiri.
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Galadriel makes a strong showing of it, with her phial and mirror. But you're effectively correct. They are impressive, but less so than Feanor's work.
 
when our own world is so full of artificial complications and distractions, it can be hard to imagine having the freedom and the means to pursue anything you want, with unlimited time to devote to it. but this is what the Elves possess. consider also that those who went to Valinor had the Valar themselves to teach them, whose own music and inventions became the world - the powers of nature are extensions of the Valar. it doesn't seem judicious to minimize what they had the opportunity, the ability and the pleasure to convey...

if anything is holding back the abilities of the Elves or the Valar, it is their own choice, I think, not to fully exert their power, but to use the least to maximum effect: choosing a Hobbit to carry Sauron's ring to Mordor and become the main instrument of his downfall is the perfect example of this philosophy, which stands in total opposition to the fixations and methods of the enemy.

granted that enchantment as illusion is probably more closely associated with Elven-kind, traditionally speaking, than any other kind of magic, I still believe there should be more to Elven magic than illusion: again, because they had the makers of reality to learn from, to teach them about the Music that is the world itself; and I would even expect those left behind in middle earth to be capable of unraveling some of this, if for no other reason than because they are immortal - yet they have other advantages besides.
 
Faelivrin said:
Likewise, no other elf should craft "magic" artifacts as impressive as Feanor's silmarils and palantiri.

As for killing Balrogs, I hope that this advantage will not be so great that it diminishes the heroism of Glorfindel and Ecthelion. I think their success should mostly be due to their valor and self-sacrifice, and in Ecthelion's case a fountain blessed by Ulmo.
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I do agree with this, although I may be imagining the Silmarils as being almost too bright to look at...

as for the valor of heroes, consistent with my last comment, I see their magic as an expression of that - the sheer strength of their spirit, when all else fails

not like Harry Potter, who can whip off a spell with merely a word or thought and a flourish of a wand - or an archer, sniping from a distance. not that magic has a maximum effective range, or that casting requires even these measures - but that it costs something, perhaps in the same sense as for someone who writes a book, only to see it burned.
 
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Fell Critter said:
I do agree with this, although I may be imagining the Silmarils as being almost too bright to look at...

as for the valor of heroes, consistent with my last comment, I see their magic as an expression of that - the sheer strength of their spirit, when all else fails

not like Harry Potter, who can whip off a spell with merely a word or thought and a flourish of a wand - or an archer, sniping from a distance. not that magic has a maximum effective range, or that casting requires even these measures - but that it costs something, perhaps in the same sense as for someone who writes a book, only to see it burned.
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This isn't George R.R. Martin.
 
in the sense that these spells might be considered works of art, I mean. to be forced to use them in combat would be painful for anyone who didn't delight in combat

but I am a fan of noticing that enchantment can be accomplished through telepathy - even reality itself is potentially an illusion. but to the extent that it isn't, I can only think that there is potentially more to enchantment (and illusion) than what takes place entirely within the mind

I take Melian plucking Thingol from the flow of time as my example. there is no way that this was imagined... of course she was a Maia, but to me the difference between Maiar and Eldar isn't the kind of magics they can cast, but the resources they have to draw upon, and the understanding that comes from having existed before the world was made - only some of which is possible to teach, perhaps
 
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Faelivrin said:
it's clear that there's no throwing of fireballs or snowstorms, or controlling the weather. Nor controlling rivers without a greater Ring of Power (or being a Maia).
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No fireballs. For snow and ice and storm i'm not that sure... We could have such things on and off in the anfauglith where morgoths control of elements struggles with those of the valar.

Again that's not a form if weathercontrol spells cast by the elves! It 's the elves getting assistance from the valar on and off so like with gildors and frodos "o elbereth gilthoniel", here we would have blessings and prayers rather than spells. And it would be more the younger generation, like turgon, rather than the older generation like feanor & sons, who still are at odds with the valar.

As with elrond and mitheithel/ bruinen... I'm not sure if that is control. It might be more of friendship?

I could see turgon do a similar thing, summoning sirion . But again, he does not do that because he has some power over sirion, he does it because ulmo's powers are in sirion and ulmo is a friend who can be called upon in times of need and who is ready to help.


On anti balrog - tech:

Yes theres definitely the danger to diminish ecthelions and glorfindels sacrifice... We'll have to be careful with such things when it comes to magical weapons and blessed gems ( i still yet would like ecthelions helmet spike ti be an enchanted feanorian gem though)
 
The Elves do not have the same powers as the Valar. World-shaping cosmogonic demiurgy isn't a skill you learn, it isn't science or technology either. It's an inherent power Eru granted the Ainur as part of their inbuilt nature. He did not grant it to his Children. Just because the Elves had Valar to teach them, doesn't mean they could learn to control the weather or cast D&D spells. Nor does it mean the Valar wanted to teach them to do so. We do not see Elves, even Calaquendi, casting instant-healing spells, or fire-without-fuel spells, or fireball spells, or see-in-the-dark spells, or weather-control-spells, or ice-bolt spells, or rock-to-mud spells, or instant-food-crop spells, or water-breathing spells, even when those would literally save lives.

The First Age stories are full of Elves suffering hunger and cold, drowning, dying of wounds after another Elf has time to stand over them unable to help, not being able to read minds without permission, being stymied by bad weather, storms, solid rocks, swords, fire they can't quench, and darkness and smoke they can't see through. You can't explain away every single such story by saying Morgoth or Sauron personally opposed them with personally tailored magic that the Elf couldn't out-magic. That becomes over-the-top. Then you get idiot plots, just like with the palantiri. Then the audience must ask why all the Noldor together can't manage to overthrow Morgoth but Eonwe pulled it off.

I am absolutely against D&D or Warcraft style high magic for Elves. They aren't Gandalf. Nobody but Elrond and Galadriel have Rings of Power. Only Luthien manages to shapeshift. Only she and Elwing ever manage to fly. Only Finrod and Luthien ever oppose a demon with a song of power -- not Fingolfin, not Fingon, not Feanor, not Glorfindel or Ecthelion.

We don't even see Gandalf with Narya using very much magic. Up on Caradhras he doesn't cast a weather control spell. He leads them down into Moria.


EDIT: To clarify, I'm in favor of impressive but limited and subtle Elf-magic and illusion. But it needs to have very carefully-thought out limits and consistency so that it doesn't produce idiot plots in later seasons. Each time you show an Elf doing something magic, you need to ask:

1. How many Elves can do this, and how easily/consistently does it work?
2. When would this power have disrupted a later plot, as written by JRRT?
 
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Yeah, we ran into that problem with the palantiri. We decided that the Noldor really couldn't have any in Beleriand, and Morgoth *really* really can't have one, even though there were no doubt some in Formenos. So he just smashed them all when he stole the silmarils.
 
Faelivrin said:
I am absolutely against D&D or Warcraft style high magic for Elves. They aren't Gandalf. Nobody but Elrond and Galadriel have Rings of Power. Only Luthien manages to shapeshift. Only she and Elwing ever manage to fly. Only Finrod and Luthien ever oppose a demon with a song of power -- not Fingolfin, not Fingon, not Feanor, not Glorfindel or Ecthelion.

We don't even see Gandalf with Narya using very much magic. Up on Caradhras he doesn't cast a weather control spell. He leads them down into Moria.


EDIT: To clarify, I'm in favor of impressive but limited and subtle Elf-magic and illusion. But it needs to have very carefully-thought out limits and consistency so that it doesn't produce idiot plots in later seasons. Each time you show an Elf doing something magic, you need to ask:

1. How many Elves can do this, and how easily/consistently does it work?
2. When would this power have disrupted a later plot, as written by JRRT?
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I agree. While this may be splitting hairs, and I confess I do not know the Unpublished Materials as well as many others here, I see the difference between elven "enchantment" and modern understandings of "magic" (taking my cue from On Fairy Stories) as the difference between influence and control. An elf of great stature might be able to ask, politely, if the wind wouldn't die down a little bit. He can't force it, and in places where the wind is particularly strong, such as the Helacraxe, it's not going to heed his request. Sometimes the authority is greater, if the person attempting the influence has a stronger claim or right -- I'm thinking in particular of Faramir reading Gollum's mind. I don't think he can read just about anyone's mind just about anytime. But he is seated in judgement, over Gollum and his master, and therefore has a greater power over him than if they had just met on the street. Gandalf and the Balrog's fight, too, has elements of "who has the greater authority here" over fire, and Gandalf seems to win that part of the fight.

I suggest that we stress, rather than any innate "power" in our elves, their different relationships with the world than Men. Men escape the circles of the world when they die, they're bypassers and visitors. Elves aren't. The wind and water and all other physical things are more intimately related, therefore, to elves, who are fully of the world -- at least for now. So their influence and sometimes authority over physical things is more like an older sibling rebuking a younger, rather than a sorcerer summoning something out of nothing.
 
Hell. We actually should move the magic discussion parts from this threat that have nothing to do with Balrogs anymore to the other threat... how are we ever gonna find all this again, when we#re looking for it if we come back to the topic (and it#s SO sure we will come back to it sooner or later...)
 
Moving this slightly back towards Balrogs, how much magic do we want to depict them having? I think I'd want them to have very little, actually, and mostly inert. They are fire and shadow, and can somehow increase or decrease the amount of one or the other, but I don't think they could, say, light torches across the hall without getting up off the couch. They do seem to have some ability to daunt minds and inspire fear... do we want them to be able to do anything else? I, for one, don't want them to be able to telekinetically toss their enemies into a wall, a la Sith Lords.
 
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