Elven military

Discussion in 'Season 3' started by Haerangil, Apr 28, 2017.

  1. Haerangil

    Haerangil Well-Known Member

    I'drather compare them to reman and gaulish warriors... except for the bent blades and the wolfriders.

    The Greek Soldiers to me are a thing I would compare the Feanorian Warrior to (except for the cavalry and the more individualised Gondolindrim housetroops).
     
  2. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    I think that we are going to wind up with a certain amount of cherry-picking no matter what to avoid too direct a correlation to real-life cultures.
     
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  3. Haerangil

    Haerangil Well-Known Member

    sure!

    but still... there´s something of a parrallel... the Celts and Roman Armies were infantry based with the Spear and big shield as main weapon, swords as side weapons, little Cavalry , or cavalry and Archers/Slingers mainly auxiliary units (at last the romans and early celts) ...

    that´s much like the Orcs who fight with broad spears and carry bent swords and clubs as sidearms, have little cavalry (at least i don#t see wolfriders as too big units) and Archers... plus Orcs also wear broad rimmed helmets, scale and mail armour... much like the roman legionaire.

    The Noldor too... individual heavy armour, like the Hoplite, but scale instead of cuirass/linothorax, but also crested helmets and Spear plus sword (though long sword instead of shortblade, and the Noldo sword seems more of a main rather than sideweapon), and little cavalry (at the beginning), but many archers as a difference...

    also both cultures make use of the spearhead/campaigner/champion who engages in duel/1to1 combat... which of course was more ritualised/mantic in character for celts and Greeks... but does play a big role in the highly idealised/mythologized warfare Tolkien describes.

    but cherry-pickjing... of course that´s necessary... we don#t have any historical examples for balrogs or Trolls... who are like tanks, only that they´re close-combat units instead of artillery... so Beleriandic Warfare will always be a thing on it´s own.
     
  4. Ange1e4e5

    Ange1e4e5 Well-Known Member

    What should the Sindar use?
     
  5. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    We will only see the Sindar in a couple of mass encounters, but given the equipment that Tolkien gives to them, it seems likely they would utilize some of the strategies of the northern Europeans. Use of shield-wall tactics seems to make sense to me. They also seem much more likely to use massed archery in their engagements than the Noldor.

    In fact, I would see them using a few ranks of spearmen as a shield for archers at the back. During the script discussion, we came up with the idea of Telchar innovating armor-piercing arrowheads or Bodkin points, to specifically outfit the Sindar, whom she can already see are particularly good archers.
     
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  6. Halstein

    Halstein Member

    Maybe having them using the system of the "Taktika" of Nikeforos Ouranos. The files have two heavy spear-men, three archers, and then two heavy spear-men. The two spear-men in the back can be moved to the front, if an enemy charge is imminent. Else they protect the rear of the line from surprise. If there are trolls and similar heavies present, the files can be doubled in depth.
     
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  7. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    I'm not familiar with Ouranos, but I'll have to take a look at it. This sounds good to me.
     
  8. Halstein

    Halstein Member

    It is a simplified version of the system used in Ouranos' manual. The "Taktika" is, along with the somewhat earlier, but very similar "Praecepta militaria" by Nikeforos Foukas (Nikephoros Phokas is the Latinised spelling), in the book "Sowing the Dragon's Teeth: Byzantine Warfare in the Tenth Century" by Eric McGeer.

    I'll give a short summary of the system used. They had "Chiliarchia" of 400 spear-men, 300 archers, and 100 menavlatoi for the line.

    The menavlatoi were equipped with the menavlion, somewhat sturdier, but shorter spears than the regular spear-men used. The menavlatoi lined up in the rear, but were to be sent to the front, if the enemy had heavily armoured cavalry ready to charge. They were supposed to be extra strong and brave.

    In addition 200 skirmishers equipped with bows, javelins, and slings belonged to the chiliarchia.

    The manuals foresees 12 or 16 ciliarchia formed up in a hollow square, with gaps, covered by the skirmishers. Cavalry can retreat inside, or sally forth from the square. The cavalry as seen as the main strike-force, so they line up in front of the square at the start of battle, but I'll not go into any details of how the cavalry were organised here.

    The Sindar might of course not use the complete system.
     
  9. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    I think a modified version of this would work. Squares are a fairly advanced innovation, which I'm not sure they would have arrived at yet. I do think that the ratio of front-line troops to skirmishers/archers is about right.
     
  10. Haerangil

    Haerangil Well-Known Member

    hmm...

    While I compare Orcs and Noldor to Roman , Celtic and mediterranean Military i rather see the Sindar and Nandor as similar to the early Germans and Baltic/Slavic peoples...

    so i do not see them march in big formations -at last not usually-...
    they fight mostly in forest country... so they possibly use small skirmish units... light armour, Spear & middle-shield, Axe and Shortblade as sidearms?
     
  11. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    Under most circumstances, I agree with you. Not in the case of Amon Ereb.
     
  12. Haerangil

    Haerangil Well-Known Member

    Yeah, Amon Ereb is an open country Battle...

    So I guess if they have to, the Sindar are quite able to fight in the open country quite well. But i doubt they use or even HAVe different equipment for these cases...
     
  13. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    I don't think anyone was suggesting otherwise. Other than that they used archery rather heavily.
     
  14. Haerangil

    Haerangil Well-Known Member

    I just tried to point out differences between Sindar equipment and Noldorian one.
     
  15. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    That was the main thrust of my post on the subject as well. The Sindar in spear ranks are not as tight or organized as those of the Noldor here. And they depend much more heavily on masse d archery.
     
  16. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Well-Known Member

    What kind of defensive or evasive strategies would evolve in response to trolls and werewolves? Units that can take and deal heavy blows, or highly mobile units that can get out of the way while gradually wearing down the big enemies?
     
  17. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

  18. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Well-Known Member

    Oh, evidently I have a short memory for threads.
     

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