Session 2.11 for S2E07

Some options for the Trial:

1) It takes place in the Ring of Doom. The Valar are ALL present. They are seated on their thrones. No elves. [ie, just like his first trial, which we have not seen prior to this episode.]
2) Same as #1, but with elves.
3) At the Gates of Valmar. Manwë, Nienna, Mandos, Tulkas and some other Valar present (but not all). Elves as witnesses. [Very close to the published Silmarillion version.]
4) In the Halls of Mandos (or the public courtyard just in front). Same cast as #3, but without the elves.
5) Before the Thrones of Manwë and Varda on Taniquetal - elves? other Valar?
6) ???

I feel like, if we don't have a flashback, we need to choose option 1. If we *do* have a flashback where we show at least some of the initial trial (maybe as the opening of this episode), then we are free to have the parole hearing however we like.



I think that Melkor's interaction with the elves can begin after the Trial, and can be very innocuous in this episode...for the most part. But I do want one creepy scene, and might as well be now rather than later.


For awhile, I have had the image of Melkor standing over the body of Míriel in Lorien in my mind. Mostly because he wouldn't have to *do* anything to her, but for her to be completely vulnerable and unable to do anything (being....dead) and to have him just looming over her... that could be a very evocative image.

Now imagine Fëanor walking in on that scene. He goes on a 'graveside visit' to his mother's preserved body, and there he finds this questionable guy looming over her...he'd hate Melkor at first sight, on principle. And since Fëanor and Melkor are going to be antagonistic towards each other, why not start that now?

I'm willing to entertain other first meeting ideas of Fëanor and Melkor, but we should decide if that happens in this episode or next...and I would like it to be very much antagonistic. Fëanor does *not* admire Melkor's skills and strength.
 
MithLuin said:
I'm willing to entertain other first meeting ideas of Fëanor and Melkor, but we should decide if that happens in this episode or next...and I would like it to be very much antagonistic. Fëanor does *not* admire Melkor's skills and strength.
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I actually think we should emphasize how not-fooled by Melkor Feanor is: too often, it's really easy to think of Feanor being the "greatest" of the elves only in terms of his skills, but he's also supposed to be brilliant and insightful and inspiring. If he's more clear-sighted about Melkor than most other elves and even some of the Ainur, it would 1) illustrate his talents/gifts and 2) give the audience something to be on his side/root for him about. Yeah, he's a jerk to his stepmom and her kids, but the modern audience is well accustomed to rooting for an anti-hero, and if we set up the main conflict being "troubled but clear-sighted (I had to catch myself from writing "street-wise")" Feanor and "cunning and deceitful" Melkor, the audience will be on Feanor's side.
 
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I suggest an alternative that's not quite alternative 1). I think the Valar should meet in the Ring of Doom, but: What if the Valar meet and have this trial, and don't specifically invite the elves or forbid them to join or listen - but speak in their own language? We could switch between showing the trial (in English) and Finwë or someone (or several elves) watching from a distance trying to understand what is going on. Perhaps a Maia could be there, partially interpreting or explaining.

That Maia could be anyone, but we could make who it is matter. I think it could be Curumo.

Curumo could be secretly admiring Melkor, or have an inner conflict about him, and his explanations and interpretations could be a bit too neutral. I mean maybe he doesn't describe Melkor's crimes in detail or maybe he does a better job at translating Melkor's defence or Nienna's.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
In scenario 1, the Valar just don't inform the elves what is going on, which seems ... really underhanded and suspicious. What do they have to hide? For what reason do they not want to inform the elves of this?

In scenario 2, they do tell them, but do not invite them. Are none of the elves curious to see this villain they've been told about? Do they ask and told they cannot attend? What do the Valar have to hide? Why won't the elves watch?
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In scenario 1, for what reason do the Valar not want to inform the elves of this? Well-meaning, but overprotective "parental" instinct, maybe? I can imagine some of the Valar being conflicted about whether or not to include the elves...maybe the same ones who were concerned about the safety of the elves as part of the reasoning in the "Let's bring them over" debate wouldn't see the need to revisit previous, less idyllic events in the presence of the Children (same logic for scenario 2), while the others who were in favour of letting the elves thrive and giving them more independence would be more along the lines of "What cause do we have to keep this from them?", wanting them to be as well-informed as possible, etc.?

I do agree that it would seem rather off for the Valar to exclude the elves, though. But thinking about it...this may actually work later, when Melkor starts spreading lies about the Valar and their being jealous of the Eldar and keeping things from them ("They wouldn't even include you in their important affairs, hmmm..."). He could use that same viewpoint (Underhanded...suspicious...what would they have to hide?) against the Valar (not necessarily using those words, just promoting that line of thought), further spreading seeds of doubt among those who will already be beginning to hearken to his words?
 
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We could also have the Valar be very skeptical. Like, okay, we'll give this a try, we'll let you out.....
But ONLY within the confines of Valmar, and Manwë (or one of the other Valar) will be watching you AT ALL TIMES.

They think they can contain him, so that as long as they are cautious and have constant vigilance, he's not a threat. They give him a chance because Nienna begs for it, but they don't for a minute think he has changed. Some of the Valar can express the clear expectation that Melkor will be back in his jail cell in Mandos in a day (okay, okay, 'before the mingling of the light of the Trees').

And then Melkor responds by....being on *perfect* behavior, expressing *exactly* what they want to hear.....and that's when we get the mix of people thinking he's actually good now and he's given a bit more freedom...allowed to talk to the elves without constant supervision, allowed to travel through Valinor. Some are still highly suspicious (Tulkas, Ulmo), but since Manwë said he's allowed to travel freely, they don't stop him.


In this way, the parole hearing doesn't have to be the main drama of the episode. It's the....watching Melkor on parole and trying to figure out what he's up to that should cause the drama. He should express remorse, say he wants to learn more, admit he was wrong and acted out of 'unjust anger' or something like that. A very convincing show of humility and remorse, totally out of character for the villain we saw in Season 1. It allows time to pass, a generation of elves to grow up, and doesn't make the Valar look too much like overly trusting idiots. Melkor 'earns' whatever freedom he has, and so it's their sense of fairness that gives him more and more free rein. If we do it this way, the flashback to the original trial would be the opening of the episode, the build up to the retrial would be the first 10 minutes, and then we'd be into the re-trial where Melkor is released, and we can get back to elves-in-Valinor storylines. By the end of the episode, Melkor will have won over enough trust to be able to move about Valinor freely.


The fate of Mairon should also come up at this re-trial. Do the Valar think he was lost/killed in the battle? No one has seen him since, so...... Does Melkor brag about his ability to win over Mairon, express sorrow for the fall of the maia, pretend ignorance of any of Mairon's actions, or...???
 
MithLuin said:
We could also have the Valar be very skeptical. Like, okay, we'll give this a try, we'll let you out.....
But ONLY within the confines of Valmar, and Manwë (or one of the other Valar) will be watching you AT ALL TIMES.

They think they can contain him, so that as long as they are cautious and have constant vigilance, he's not a threat. They give him a chance because Nienna begs for it, but they don't for a minute think he has changed. Some of the Valar can express the clear expectation that Melkor will be back in his jail cell in Mandos in a day (okay, okay, 'before the mingling of the light of the Trees').
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I think this could work very well. Remember, Melkor is, for lack of a better word, the first career criminal in Arda. Even the Valar aren't really going to have any idea about when rehabilitation works or not (not to suggest we have any better idea), or what the point of no return is, especially if they don't know about the SSNOP or the black rider (didn't we establish that as Mairon, anyway?). So they're skeptical of Melkor, remember all he's done, but self-aware enough to know that they really don't know. They also won't understand the depths of his malice, and think that keeping an eye on him, so that he doesn't go making more monsters, is enough, completely discounting the discord he can sow with his words.
 
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Nicholas, what if we split it down the middle and have one or two representatives each from the Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri? That way you don't have a spectacle and you don't have a situation where it seems like the Valar are hiding something. Just a thought.
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I really like this idea. Have the same three who journeyed to Valinor initially also be the representatives at the trial. That way we can also see how the time in Valinor has changed each of the Kindreds and establish, visually, a way for the viewer to distinguish which kindred is which.
 
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I like the idea of the Valar beeing sceptical.

For the scenarios:
MithLuin said:
1) It takes place in the Ring of Doom. The Valar are ALL present. They are seated on their thrones. No elves. [ie, just like his first trial, which we have not seen prior to this episode.]
2) Same as #1, but with elves.
3) At the Gates of Valmar. Manwë, Nienna, Mandos, Tulkas and some other Valar present (but not all). Elves as witnesses. [Very close to the published Silmarillion version.]
4) In the Halls of Mandos (or the public courtyard just in front). Same cast as #3, but without the elves.
5) Before the Thrones of Manwë and Varda on Taniquetal - elves? other Valar?
Click to expand...

I like Ray's idea with the representative elves, but for visually enhance the significance of the decision I would combine 1) and 3) anyway: First, let dem decide as in 1) with 3 representatives. Second, let Manwe proclaim the decision as in 3) and then unchain him there.
 
I think that what we can see moving forward, with the Elvish representatives at the trial, is a foreshadowing of how Melkor will be dealing with the different kindreds moving forward.

As Melkor is pleading for mercy, at first he looks at Ingwe, who turns his back on him. Melkor looks for a second at Olwe and then he just dismisses them. Then he focuses all of his talk of helping rebuild what he helped destroy and teaching new ways to make Valinor more beautiful than before directly at Finwe. And, after being pardoned, he walks over to the three representatives: totally ignores Olwe, watches as Ingwe steps away from the conversation, and speaks to Finwe directly.

Perhaps, at this time, we have a young Feanor run up to Finwe and we have the first seemingly innocuous meeting of Melkor and Feanor (although this may be a little too Phantom Menace as when Palpatine first meets Anakin).
 
Fëanor will be a married adult with several 'teenage' sons in this episode. We will likely be introducing adult actors for *some* of Finwë's grandchildren now - Maedhros, Celegorm and Fingon, at the very least. Galadriel, the youngest grandchild, will need to be old enough to rebuke her uncle in the next episode. I think it important that Fëanor never once give Melkor the time of day or any indication of trust. He understands people very well, and he manages to see through Melkor when many others do not.


As for the 'representative elves', I do rather like that idea. For one thing, it shows what has changed since the Ambassadors first came to Valinor. Ingwë is no longer a grieving widower, but has his wife returned to him. Finwë, who was an unmarried young man at that time, now has a 2nd wife and 5 children and several grandchildren. Elwë has been replaced by his brother Olwë, whose children will befriend Finarfin son of Finwë. Also, in 5 more episodes, Finwë will be dead, killed by Melkor, and early in the next season, Olwë may be killed, victim of Fëanor's rebellion that is aimed at Melkor. It gives us a chance to show the dynamic of the Kings of the elves in Valinor with their relationship to the Valar.

But then we lose the validity of Melkor's argument that the Valar keep the elves out of 'important' business. Sure, he can tell the elves of the 2ndborn Children in a 'oh, didn't the Valar mention that?' way, but we should probably see at least one scene where the Valar are discussing something important and explicitly excluding the elves to lend some weight to the wedge he's starting to drive...lies need a kernel of truth to really work in.

This is a tricky question!
 
I still lean towards not letting any elves be present at the trial. I think though that they could observe from a distance, as I suggested earlier.
 
Ok, I obviously like the idea of having one or two reps from each branch. However, if we decide (really when the execs decide) to NOT have elves present AND we show that the majority of the Valar are suspicious of Melkor then one of the Valar, or a group of them, should council all three leaders to be WARY. How derelict will it look to the audience if we show the Valar being openly suspicious then they release Melkor amongst these "children" without even counseling? Really you have to show some VERY "Melkor is a changed guy" Valar OR you have to show at least one scene where the leaders are briefed to be very cautious.
 
Maybe. Someone could talk to Finwë I suppose. Ingwë and the rest of the Vanyar are up on Taniquetil and Melkor isn't going up there, that's for sure. And he isn't particularly interested in the Teleri...
The question is, what would the Valar be afraid Melkor would do? The things he actually does start doing are kind of hard to predict I think. He starts to lie to the Noldor using half truths. How would anyone have guessed?
So what would the Valar tell the elves?
 
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