Session 4.02 - Season 4 Episode Outlines

[Faelivrin]

I still think rog,rhog,rhogrin is goldogrin or early noldorin for "doughty, strong".not related to rog, ruk, , demon,balrog etc.

I know, that's just what I posted. I'm not very good at talking about linguistics clearly. What I was trying to say is that Valarauka = Balrog was the source of "arauka". But in later Quenya, Balrog instead = Vala-rauko. That probably means that "arauka" is obsolete and doesn't exist at all in later Quenya. If "arauka" was related to "rauko" it wouldn't be obsolete.

 

[MithLuin]

Personally, I want to rename Rog as Enerdhil.

It is strongly implied in the text that Morgoth does not learn about Feanor's rebellion until well after it happens. Therefore, we probably aren't going to show him scrying anything, as it just leads to questions like 'why doesn't he know where Nargothrond and Gondolin are?'

If we want him to mysteriously just know something, I suggest the Awakening of Men. After all, that was in the Music so we don't need any explanation.

How much of the Osanwe-kenta we work into the show is up for discussion.

 

[Faelivrin]

"He scryed it even though we didn't show him doing so" is also tough to depict. I do think that the spying demons would work, without actually mentioning demon telepathy.


My idea for introducing telepathy was to do so with the Ep 1 contact between the Sindar and Noldor. Most of Fingolfin's people are muddling with trying to learn Sindarin and doing it fairly slowly (show they're separate languages). Then Turgon notices Finrod having an entirely fluent conversation with Celeborn or Cirdan, and they discuss (but with better-written dialogue) :
T: Uh, how are you already speaking Grey Elven so well? We've only met these people 3 weeks ago.
F: Well, I've been using telepathy to understand them...
T: Yes, everyone has been trying to use telepathy to cross the language barrier, and the mental images are just as vague and hard to read as always. What are you doing differently?
F: I seem to be better at this than I expected

Thus, we could establish simultaneously:
1. Telepathy exists, but for most Elves it's almost completely useless
2. Finrod is extremely good at telepathy
3. There is a language barrier between Sindarin and Quenya.

But, for important conversations the Noldor just use Finrod as a translator during the first 2 episodes. We can also show Finrod coaching Angrod on Sindarin before his trip. This will also allow us (in Ep. 1 of next season) to show Finrod doing the exact same thing with the Beorians. Introducing telepathy with Elves instead of Demons also lets us avoid having to explain that Demons are way better at telepathy but that mind-reading is trivially easy to block. We just establish that for most people telepathy is very very weak, and don't bring up Demon telepathy unless it's important to a later episode.


May I ask what particular reason you have for wanting Rog to be Enerdhil? I don't remember much of the Lost Tales... was Rog particularly a noted artisan? (Not disagreeing, just curious)

 

[MithLuin]

Rog and Enerdhil are different characters, of course, but Enerdhil can be in Gondolin and he's *not* one of the leaders of the Houses, so....that seems like a character combination that could work. I really don't see us including Enerdhil in this project as anything more than the most minor of cameos, so it's a way to work him in.

I think that Rog is meant to be a hardened warrior type (House of the Hammer of Wrath isn't very subtle, lol!), but for a Noldo, being both a warrior and an artisan isn't actually contradictory. I think it would give his character a little depth to have the same guy be both. He'd be a bit of a precursor to 2nd Age Celebrimbor this way. So, we'd depict him as one of the many jewel makers, and then he'd go through an ordeal, and still be a jewel-maker, but one with a penchant for 'Morgoth must pay!'

It's just a suggestion, though.

I don't want Rog to be named Rog (or anything remotely like 'rog' really), so this was a different direction to take his name that seemed appropriate. I'm open to considering other naming games to rename him, of course. Legrin or Dorn could work, I suppose.



Fixed: At this point, though, I should probably remind us all that despite our enthusiasm to be able to talk about Season 4 now, we should probably try to keep the discussion on topic.

So...this thread should focus on the Frame and the idea of whether or not to go episode-by-episode (like usual) or storyline-by-storyline for the sessions this season. The discussion of the first session (particularly the elven captives) should probably be in the Session 2 thread on the Season Overview. That will help us to be able to find it later.

Edit: These posts have all been moved into this thread now.

 

[Haerangil]

I somehow always imagined Enerdhil as a younger character, possibly an apprentice of feanors and teacher to celebrimbor. While rog to me always was an older battle hardened veteran, possibly a former thrall-noldo...

Yet enerdhil is a gemcutter and rog is a blacksmith...

I know that is not necessarily a contradiction as many noldor are universal geniuses, and then it's still only headcanon, not anything i can proof by textual evidence...


Personally i would like to call rog roka or rhoghrin and keep him and enerdhil separate... but that's just me.

Rog dies in Gondolin, maybe we could keep Enerdhil alive and let him play a role in later Eregion as a senior member of the Mirdain?

 

[Faelivrin]

Any other suggestions on how to introduce him? Those can probably go in the general discussion for Season 4.

Turgon is going to need people to talk to in Nevrast while setting up his kingdom, and later while building Gondolin and moving his people. That is prime time to introduce Glorfindel, Ecthelion, kid!Voronwe who's sad to leave the seaside, and/or any other Gondolin characters. Ecthelion and Glorfindel, like all the lords at the time, would be important sub-leaders of groups of people, organizing and leading, and doing whatever else feudal-sub-lords and courtiers do for royalty.

 

[Haerangil]

I think Turgon has plenty people in Gondolin and most of them would already be around at Nevrast, though we might reconsider at last some of them Sindar maybe?

 

[Faelivrin]

???

MithLuin asked how we can introduce Ecthelion.

Any reason we can’t include Ecthelion and Glorfindel among Turgon’s people? Why would being among his people at Nevrast be a bad place to introduce them?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

???

MithLuin asked how we can introduce Ecthelion.

Any reason we can’t include Ecthelion and Glorfindel among Turgon’s people? Why would being among his people at Nevrast be a bad place to introduce them?

Seems a good opportunity.

I'm more concerned about the Noldor princes who don't already come equipped with a retinue.

 

[Haerangil]

What is Gothmog’s idea in Episode 8?

And what do you guys think of my small suggestion for Sauron working on something technological? Saruman’s work in Lord of the Rings is supposed to echo Sauron in The Silmarillion.

How about making bigger, stronger Orcs? And mass production?

Hmm... maybe now after rising of the sun, soon thebfirst man-orcs could appear?

Question would be" how do we show these orcs are now different from the orcs weve met before?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Hmm... maybe now after rising of the sun, soon thebfirst man-orcs could appear?

Question would be" how do we show these orcs are now different from the orcs weve met before?

Yeah ... I have some concerns about this whole thing. When you tell the audience, "But this time, the enemies will be tougher!" They need to actually be more effective, which in this case, they will not be. If you spend time building something up to be true, and then turn around and illustrate how untrue it is, it seems a bit contrived. It makes me think of Rocky III, for example. If Rocky had won the first time he fought Clubber Lang (Mr. T), would anybody buy that Lang was a tougher opponent than Rocky was used to? If Ivan Drago had not beaten Apollo Creed?

 

[Haerangil]

The orcs wev'e had so far where what? Either very animalic or fallen elves, or i don't know... pretty much faceless . So maybe it's not always about bigger, better, tougher stronger? Could those orcs even be more small or weak in some way, but more intelligent, more clever, more human-like, breed faster?

I am kind of thinking of the Druedain at this point..

If it comes to more mass and muscle we have trolls, who are battle-robots.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

The orcs wev'e had so far where what? Either very animalic or fallen elves, or i don't know... pretty much faceless . So maybe it's not always about bigger, better, tougher stronger? Could those orcs even be more small or weak in some way, but more intelligent, more clever, more human-like, breed faster?

I am kind of thinking of the Druedain at this point..

If it comes to more mass and muscle we have trolls, who are battle-robots.

My point is that no matter what we do, we run the risk of telling the audience one thing, than showing them another, which troubles me. It is one thing to mislead the audience, it is another to straight-up lie to them.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

So which way should we go for the Orcs being more dangerous for the Dagor Agraleb? Bigger? Stronger? More numerous?

 

[Haerangil]

Maybe instead of telling or showing the audience too much one could work with a shock moment? I don't know... see some orc get killed and the hero sees his face and the face looks very unlike our orcs before, almost childlike ,maybe... but then again he has no time to research for more...

I am thinking of mad max beyond thunderdome when max defeated blaster and his helmet is shattered and reveals a man with down syndrome instead of some mutant.

 

[MithLuin]

Yeah ... I have some concerns about this whole thing. When you tell the audience, "But this time, the enemies will be tougher!" They need to actually be more effective, which in this case, they will not be. If you spend time building something up to be true, and then turn around and illustrate how untrue it is, it seems a bit contrived. It makes me think of Rocky III, for example. If Rocky had won the first time he fought Clubber Lang (Mr. T), would anybody buy that Lang was a tougher opponent than Rocky was used to? If Ivan Drago had not beaten Apollo Creed?

Right - you can't tell the audience something that isn't true and then not expect them to mock you mercilessly for it and doubt you in the future.

Sure, Star Wars might have been more tense if Stormtroopers were actually accurate shots. See them take a few people out with head shots right away and everyone would get nervous. But....but...the rest of the plot revolves around getting chased, yet not killed, by Imperial Stormtroopers. They needed non-threatening bad guys because the good guys have to escape unscathed over and over again. The plot trumps the narration, there.

I think that our Angband storyline should emphasize the troubles they are having, and the elves can be a bit oblivious to how serious a set-back the Sun was to Morgoth. The elves won't be confident until after the Dagor Aglareb...which is when they should actually start getting nervous as Morgoth moves on to inventing a foe worthy of his elvish foes 😛

 

[MithLuin]

???

MithLuin asked how we can introduce Ecthelion.

Any reason we can’t include Ecthelion and Glorfindel among Turgon’s people? Why would being among his people at Nevrast be a bad place to introduce them?

Certainly, Ecthelion and Glorfindel (and some other more minor characters) will be with Turgon at Nevrast.

What I am asking for is an introduction scene/plot point/story, not just where in the timeline they will appear.

As a 'for instance' - Glorfindel's introduction in Lord of the Rings is the moment when he saves Frodo and company in the flight to the Ford of Bruinen. It's a moment that really emphasizes how Glorfindel is a unique elf, able to face the Nazgul directly. The audience is immediately taken in by how awesome he is. It's a great intro (and then of course he does nothing else for the rest of the story, which is...maybe not...how these things...usually...go).

We absolutely can introduce Ecthelion as the person who is arranging the event planning for the Mereth Aderthad and getting Nevrast ready for the party.

But...we almost definitely don't want to do that.

We want to think about the scene that will introduce Ecthelion and what it will tell the audience about him. There should be something central to his character (or future destiny) in that scene.

TV show character introductions don't have to all be overly dramatic and impressive. But they should be in some way memorable.


Edited to add:
Example TV character intro: Charlie on Supernatural

This 1 minute intro at the beginning of the episode lets us see and form an impression of the new character Charlie (played by Felicia Day). There is no dialogue, but we quickly learn that she is a quirky/unconventional type - she rides a bright yellow moped to work; she has a geeky 'rebel' Princess Leia t-shirt instead of conservative office clothes; she rocks out to her ipod on the company elevator. And it doesn't take much to figure out that the episode title 'The Girl with the Dungeons and Dragon Tattoo' probably refers to her. So, there's lots of 'character' moments there, but most of her actions (plot) emphasizes the security of the place where she works; she needs a key card to get in the building and to use the elevator, and there are security guards watching her photo ID pop up on their screens as she passes. Clearly, she is going to be a key character if some outsider wanted to sneak into the RRE headquarters....

I'm not asking us to come up with the precise intro scene we want for Ecthelion yet. I'm asking us to come up with a plotline where he does something significant/key, so we can craft an intro in that context. If Ecthelion were Charlie, I would want us to come up with 'we can use her to break into RRE, showing off her tech skills.' So, yes, I know he's practically Turgon's right-hand man, and is thus heavily involved in the construction of Vinyamar and Gondolin, and likely helps rule Nevrast. But...what does he *do*? Is he a key player in the Sindar coming to live in Nevrast? If so, how/why? Having him captured/escape Angband is a storyline that gives him a role in the story - he would come back with intel about what Morgoth and Sauron are up to. Part of the issue is that we want the audience to see him and Glorfindel as awesome fighters...so at some point in this first season where he's more than a background extra without lines, we need to show that.

 

[Haakon]

I’m a bit confused right now about where to post this comment...but here goes:

We’ve discussed Rog and Ecthelion and who’s going to be taken captive and escape and become hardened. We don’t have to choose, necessarily. A group of three elves - Rog, Ecthelion and Orodreth - could be taken and escape, and the two first are hardened, maybe in different ways, and Orodreth is weakened.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I think that our Angband storyline should emphasize the troubles they are having, and the elves can be a bit oblivious to how serious a set-back the Sun was to Morgoth. The elves won't be confident until after the Dagor Aglareb...which is when they should actually start getting nervous as Morgoth moves on to inventing a foe worthy of his elvish foes 😛

The thing that worries me about this is that the elves know that the orcs are not a credible threat to them. They cut through them with almost no casualties before the rising of the sun. And yes, they know trolls are scary in enough numbers, but they also have seen what happens to trolls (and orcs for that matter) in the sunlight.

The only thing that crosses my mind: When does Melkor start pumping out smoke and ash to locally obscure the sun in the book? (Don't have my books handy.)

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I’m a bit confused right now about where to post this comment...but here goes:

We’ve discussed Rog and Ecthelion and who’s going to be taken captive and escape and become hardened. We don’t have to choose, necessarily. A group of three elves - Rog, Ecthelion and Orodreth - could be taken and escape, and the two first are hardened, maybe in different ways, and Orodreth is weakened.

Of all the capture plans, this one bothers me the least. I imagine it would have to be something of a mini-arc, lasting a 2-3 episodes at least to make the meaning stick, but it ticks off a bunch of boxes. It allows named characters to interact and be developed. It prevents us from needing a named villain in the room every time that we want to show these guys, preventing the temptation for unnecessary monologuing. It makes the escape a bit more believable. A weakened and emotionally damaged elf would (should?) have serious trouble escaping Angband, but Rog and Ecthelion together, make that very believable. This makes the idea that they were intentionally allowed to escape more insidious.