So if I read you right, @amysrevenge , your idea is that they have love at first sight, or love at first meeting, and that one of the ways we can portray that is with this sharing and keeping of secrets?
Session 4.04 & 4.05 - Overarching Storylines
- Thread starter MithLuin
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amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
Yes, just that. There are no secrets between them, ever again. Maybe it's an Elf-y mind-meld/what we may call magic. An uncontrolled or unintentional two-way telepathy. It's hard to put into words. It's similar to modern humans becoming first-time parents, where their entire world switches instantly and permanently (and without a lot of deliberateness, it just happens) from "the two of us" to "the three of us" (only minus one for G&C haha). It's kind of a shocking shift, as even the most enormously pregnant woman is still, practically speaking, just 1 person. You have to remind yourself that there's going to be a new person around, but you don't feel it in your bones - it's all academic. And then all of a sudden there is another person, and you don't think "hey, now that there's another person, I'll have to remember to account for that new person when I consider my actions moving forward", it just happens.
For G&C, all plans and hopes and worries and goals would instantly shift from "me" to "us".
For G&C, all plans and hopes and worries and goals would instantly shift from "me" to "us".
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Galadriel is a telepath. Could play a part in bonding.
Yes, the concept of trust being linked to love is a rather important point here. "I" becoming "we" is a big deal. My Mom has often said, "Love is based on honesty," the idea being that you can't really keep secrets from someone you care about deeply. This is, of course, the exact opposite of the advice 'guard your heart,' which is meant to urge caution in who you share intimacies with, making sure they're trustworthy first.
That being said...people obviously keep secrets - even really, really significant ones - from loved ones all the time. As an example, this woman hid a really significant part of her past from her husband and their children, not revealing her secret even when the kids were teens and she had reason to believe it might be catching up with her soon.
https://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2011/04/marie_walsh_also_known_as_susa.html
So, certainly, Galadriel and Celeborn *could* share this secret in confidence. Or, Galadriel could share only part of the story (the personal part), and leave out some of the rebellion/kinslaying details. Not that she's going to label her mother's death an accident, so no matter what she says, at least some of the implications of the kinslaying are present, even if she doesn't name names or directly blame Fëanor or whatever.
I don't think either version is out of character (or at least, not necessarily out of character), though certainly we would have to justify their closeness with the rest of the story to support any kind of disclosure.
And...basically this. Sindar/Noldor relations, Celeborn's relationship with Galadriel, and the rest of the Noldor-centric storylines.
That being said...people obviously keep secrets - even really, really significant ones - from loved ones all the time. As an example, this woman hid a really significant part of her past from her husband and their children, not revealing her secret even when the kids were teens and she had reason to believe it might be catching up with her soon.
https://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2011/04/marie_walsh_also_known_as_susa.html
So, certainly, Galadriel and Celeborn *could* share this secret in confidence. Or, Galadriel could share only part of the story (the personal part), and leave out some of the rebellion/kinslaying details. Not that she's going to label her mother's death an accident, so no matter what she says, at least some of the implications of the kinslaying are present, even if she doesn't name names or directly blame Fëanor or whatever.
I don't think either version is out of character (or at least, not necessarily out of character), though certainly we would have to justify their closeness with the rest of the story to support any kind of disclosure.
Next week!
And...basically this. Sindar/Noldor relations, Celeborn's relationship with Galadriel, and the rest of the Noldor-centric storylines.
Yes that was my first thought a couple of weeks ago and I’ve suggested it a couple of times. I still think it’s a good idea but I can see it working out the way @amysrevenge has suggested. It fits with Celeborn being a “giver of gifts beyond the power of kings”.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
Yes I also, while preferring one way, could see it working that other way too.
So, regarding Celeborn/Galadriel...I want to make sure I understand where there is a consensus, and where there is a variety of opinions of how to handle their story.
Consensus:
Consensus:
- Celeborn and Galadriel meet very early in the Season, while Círdan meets the Noldor.
- They have an instant attraction to one another, 'clicking' and just being on the same page...but they are both a bit surprised by this and think 'surely not' as far as romance goes - he's much older than she is, and they don't speak the same language.
- They spend time together at the Mereth Aderthad, and some serious matters come up in view of the ships in the harbor at Vinyamar. [Perhaps Galadriel shares about her mother's death, perhaps she tells him about the Kinslaying.] Celeborn reciprocates, talking about his loss to the Hunter back at Cuivienen.
- Galadriel's decision to visit Menegroth may have been initially inspired by her conversations with Celeborn, but her decision to live there is all about Melian (NOT Celeborn).
- Thingol learns of the Kinslaying from Angrod, NOT from Celeborn or Galadriel.
- After the truth of the Kinslaying comes out and Thingol declares his Ban, Galadriel and Celeborn declare their love to one another.
- Towards the end of Season 4, Celeborn and Galadriel get married and live in Menegroth.
- Galadriel could reveal the entire truth of the Kinslaying to Celeborn, who chooses to hold that in confidence rather than report it to Thingol. This would be a BIG DEAL and have implications for Celeborn's character.
- Galadriel could reveal that her mother died when the Noldor left Valinor, but stop short of revealing the Kinslaying at Alqualondë. She would consider her mother's death a tragedy, but would certainly not call it an accident. Celeborn could choose not to push her to speak any more of the matter, recognizing that she's naturally very upset.
Yes to the above, except
1. Galadriel's decision to stay in Menegroth might be partly because of Celeborn, especially if it's love at first sight. (I agree Melian is a major factor.)
2. I don't agree that Celeborn needs to say he lost anybody to the Hunter. I don't see what we'd gain by killing off his family so early. What we would lose is the ability to use his family for anything thereafter.
I'll have to start that separate thread I've been composing, about why we should keep Celeborn's family alive.
1. Galadriel's decision to stay in Menegroth might be partly because of Celeborn, especially if it's love at first sight. (I agree Melian is a major factor.)
2. I don't agree that Celeborn needs to say he lost anybody to the Hunter. I don't see what we'd gain by killing off his family so early. What we would lose is the ability to use his family for anything thereafter.
I'll have to start that separate thread I've been composing, about why we should keep Celeborn's family alive.
It is part of the project that unnamed extras were captured and killed. But as far as I know, it's not a Final Decision that Celeborn has to be an orphan and his family is banned from surviving. I still do not see any need whatsoever why the Elves killed at Cuivienen MUST!! be his parents. I'm not grasping why allowing them to be alive would be so bad. And I'm not seeing what advantage there is in making him an orphan, what it could possibly add to the story. I think doing it would be useless. Please don't prematurely dismiss the possibility that any of them survived. There are good reasons to keep them alive.
I'm finishing watching the 2nd podcast right now.
I have to say I don't agree with Corey that we should depict Galadriel as blaming herself personally for the Kinslaying. We did not show her drawing her sword or murdering any Teleri. She shouldn't confess for murders she didn't commit. In fact, Galadriel as depicted by Tolkien is quite unrepentant about her role in the Rebellion. She isn't sorry for rebelling against the Valar, she rejects their pardon because she says she did nothing wrong. I especially don't agree with Corey that Galadriel should deliberatey, willingly betray Fingolfin and purposely sabotage the Sindar-Noldor alliance.
About the villains storyline, I still do not agree at all with how Corey wants to handle the corruption of Men. His suggestions don't make sense. Morgoth simply can't tempt Men because he's hideous and terrifying and can't shapeshift. They aren't going to listen to him or even stand there when he's talking, they'll all just scream and run away. He's incapable of pulling off the temptation, so he needs to send Sauron to do it.
And Tolkien explicitly said that Morgoth returned to Angband before the Dagor Aglareb, and in fact Morgoth himself started that battle. He shouldn't be absent all season.
I'm finishing watching the 2nd podcast right now.
I have to say I don't agree with Corey that we should depict Galadriel as blaming herself personally for the Kinslaying. We did not show her drawing her sword or murdering any Teleri. She shouldn't confess for murders she didn't commit. In fact, Galadriel as depicted by Tolkien is quite unrepentant about her role in the Rebellion. She isn't sorry for rebelling against the Valar, she rejects their pardon because she says she did nothing wrong. I especially don't agree with Corey that Galadriel should deliberatey, willingly betray Fingolfin and purposely sabotage the Sindar-Noldor alliance.
About the villains storyline, I still do not agree at all with how Corey wants to handle the corruption of Men. His suggestions don't make sense. Morgoth simply can't tempt Men because he's hideous and terrifying and can't shapeshift. They aren't going to listen to him or even stand there when he's talking, they'll all just scream and run away. He's incapable of pulling off the temptation, so he needs to send Sauron to do it.
And Tolkien explicitly said that Morgoth returned to Angband before the Dagor Aglareb, and in fact Morgoth himself started that battle. He shouldn't be absent all season.
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Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I may be misunderstanding what has been said, I'm still trying to catch up, but can't Celeborn have lost one or even more members of his family without being an orphan? I'm not sure why this needs to be an all or nothing issue.
People blame themselves for things which are not their fault all the time. At best, Galadriel went into the conflict on the same side as those who killed her mother. She did not know that at the time, and certainly did not know that would happen, so there is no true blame to lay at her feet. Feeling justified in the rebellion doesn't mean that she can't feel like she should have done something to prevent her mother's death.
Yes! That's exactly what I've been trying to say. He can lose several friends, or a little sibling. He doesn't actually need to lose anyone at Cuivienen. He can simply be sympathetic to Galadriel's loss out of a kind heart, and those dead Elves could be Elwe's relatives instead. There's no need for every single person close to Celeborn to be dead except his sister. There's no need to get rid of his parents, it's not like their presence is going to somehow hurt the project. In the year+ that I've been advocating why his parents would be useful as actual characters, nobody has said why we need to get rid of them.
I did start a thread in which I explain the reasons why Celeborn's parents and brother would be useful as actual characters.
What I object to is what Corey said about her. She can feel that she didn't do enough to save her mother without lying and saying she murdered the Teleri or fought on Feanor's side. She can feel grief about her mother's death without misremembering what happened. She's not a Kinslayer and should not confess to being one.
And she definitely shouldn't tell Celeborn anything unless she's 110% certain he won't share her secrets with anyone. She shouldn't deliberately betray Fingolfin with the expectation that Celeborn will tell Thingol and destroy the entire Sindar-Noldor alliance. She shouldn't be a traitor.
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I was rather intentional about describing Celeborn's reminiscing as talking about 'his loss' without specifying who, in fact, was lost. We will have to figure out who that is at some point, of course, but I know that's not a consensus at this point.
I guess I'm trying to figure out if anyone is disappointed by the 'love at first sight' take on this couple, and if anyone had any other ideas on how they should get together/fall in love?
I guess I'm trying to figure out if anyone is disappointed by the 'love at first sight' take on this couple, and if anyone had any other ideas on how they should get together/fall in love?
I think I can safely say that Corey won’t accept ‘Elmo, father of Celeborn’ in this project, and I can sympathise with that sentiment. So if Elmo is the proposed father as Tolkien sketched the family at one point, we could decide that he (Elmo) was taken by the Hunter. The mother, as well as siblings of unknown numbers, could still be alive.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
I'm prominently on the record as in favour of this, just to start the data coming in.
My immediate notion for the scene (which is not a hill I'd die on, it's just an idea) is that each of them are in a group of peers. They each, within their group, are hearing a list of the names of the members of the other group. It's a bit of a chaotic babble, Quenya and Sindar flying about in quiet murmers. Each of them is told the name of the other at the same moment, and they each look toward the other, and it happens. Then, before they can even speak to each other, they are caught up in the flow of their own groups and dragged away. They then seek each other out in the first moment of privacy they can get, and both go immediately to the same secluded place at the same time, at which point even more of it happens.
Elmo (whose name has been struck from this project, so let it be written, so let it be done) is the father of Galadhon, who is the father of Celeborn and Galathil (in the family tree we are referring to).
So, no, no one is suggesting Elmo!
But, yes, we might decide that it was indeed one or both of Celeborn's parents who was taken by the Hunter. I recall that being suggested at the time.
Yes! This is very much the way I see it happen. Love it.