Session 4.07 - Overarching Storylines, Continued

Well, there could be Elves under the S of BD mixed in among the ones that Rog gets out. Makes their escape seem more legit if they are part of an actual escape.
 
Indeed, there could.

My vote for the Elf who ends up under the Spell of Bottomless Dread is still Edhellos (Eldalote).
 
Faelivrin said:
That is only the case for Elves under the Spell of Bottomless Dread. Elves who aren't reduced to nearly-will-less slaves of Morgoth have to escape on their own without 'help'. Either it's a genuine escape, or they're let out after they have (practically) no remaining free-will.

When I suggested skirmishes, I meant that the captives could be taken in separate events, rather than all 3 at once. But maybe we don't have to finish this arc in Season 4. The mass capture of Elves for the Spell of Bottomless Dread began in ernest after the Dagor Aglareb, which probably means most of it would be going on in Season 5. On the other hand it's better if the captives who escape for real, without being broken, return home before the bespelled victims start causing problems for Elvenland.

Gwindor's escape is described in a little detail. He got a shiv of some kind from a slave-smith, and when he was on a work-gang he attacked the guards and got away (but lost a hand). Then he hid in the tunnels and found one that went south, and dug his way out (with the shiv, presumably) somewhere in Anfauglith or Taur-nu-Fuin. That sort of escape seems easier when there are enough slaves to have work-gangs at all, and to dig secret tunnels that go places they shouldn't.

Rog can also get to Gondolin during the retreat from the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and be one of Fingon and Fingolfin's lords before then. I think that's the better option than being Turgon's vassal from the start.
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I thought that mass capture of Elves under the Bottomless Dread began in earnest after the Dagor Bragollach, since it’s mentioned as happening in the aftermath.
 
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Faelivrin said:
That is only the case for Elves under the Spell of Bottomless Dread. Elves who aren't reduced to nearly-will-less slaves of Morgoth have to escape on their own without 'help'. Either it's a genuine escape, or they're let out after they have (practically) no remaining free-will.

When I suggested skirmishes, I meant that the captives could be taken in separate events, rather than all 3 at once. But maybe we don't have to finish this arc in Season 4. The mass capture of Elves for the Spell of Bottomless Dread began in ernest after the Dagor Aglareb, which probably means most of it would be going on in Season 5. On the other hand it's better if the captives who escape for real, without being broken, return home before the bespelled victims start causing problems for Elvenland.

Gwindor's escape is described in a little detail. He got a shiv of some kind from a slave-smith, and when he was on a work-gang he attacked the guards and got away (but lost a hand). Then he hid in the tunnels and found one that went south, and dug his way out (with the shiv, presumably) somewhere in Anfauglith or Taur-nu-Fuin. That sort of escape seems easier when there are enough slaves to have work-gangs at all, and to dig secret tunnels that go places they shouldn't.

Rog can also get to Gondolin during the retreat from the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and be one of Fingon and Fingolfin's lords before then. I think that's the better option than being Turgon's vassal from the start.
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Maybe those who escape earlier have a little better off than those who escape later?

Funny thought: if we have a few (say three) chained together escape all at once, would it look like this?

 
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Ange1e4e5 said:
I thought that mass capture of Elves under the Bottomless Dread began in earnest after the Dagor Bragollach, since it’s mentioned as happening in the aftermath.
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I checked and the mass capturing does start after the Dagor Aglareb, although "it was long ere all these evils began to appear" afterwards, perhaps referring to the treachery of the broken ones.

Grey Annals also mentions capture circumstances: "(either caught by robber bands in the woods, or over rash in pursuit of the foe)". I like the over-rash pursuit as the way for Orodreth to be caught. Have him be a very bold, brave, and headstrong warrior, before capture. And maybe it would work to have him, alone, captured at Dagor Aglareb, with the others captured at other times.

Ange1e4e5 said:
Maybe those who escape earlier have a little better off than those who escape later?
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Seems likely.
 
Faelivrin said:
I like the over-rash pursuit as the way for Orodreth to be caught. Have him be a very bold, brave, and headstrong warrior, before capture. And maybe it would work to have him, alone, captured at Dagor Aglareb, with the others captured at other times.
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I agree, the contrast of pre- and post-capture Orodreth should be startling to everyone.
 
So we don’t lose sight of it from the first page of this thread:
https://forums.signumuniversity.org...n-4-07-overarching-storylines-continued.3118/

What should we have Luthien do this season? She’s likely going to have some screen time with Galadriel as she moves to Doriath, be absent from the Mereth Aderthad (because Thingol gets paranoid that one of the Noldor will take her from him?), but she doesn’t have much to do until Beren comes to Doriath. Plus, Dareon will try to woo her, but that’s it from what I can tell.

We’ll have to invent some material.
 
I guess there are two ways to go about it:

1) Find an event that happens, but isn't fully developed in the PubSil. Insert Luthien as a prime mover in that event.

2) Try to come up with a bad or tragic event that seemed like it should happen, or *could* happen, and figure out how Luthien prevented it. This one is probably the safest - it doesn't mess up with the timeline too much to have Luthien prevent something from happening that never happened in the book. And it could be a big as we want even. Prevent an auto-win for Morgoth in the middle of the long peace, that we never hear about because it didn't happen. Maybe some sort of natural disaster he's brewing up - volcano, earthquake, that sort of thing. She somehow mucks it up so it doesn't happen.
 
amysrevenge said:
I guess there are two ways to go about it:

1) Find an event that happens, but isn't fully developed in the PubSil. Insert Luthien as a prime mover in that event.

2) Try to come up with a bad or tragic event that seemed like it should happen, or *could* happen, and figure out how Luthien prevented it. This one is probably the safest - it doesn't mess up with the timeline too much to have Luthien prevent something from happening that never happened in the book. And it could be a big as we want even. Prevent an auto-win for Morgoth in the middle of the long peace, that we never hear about because it didn't happen. Maybe some sort of natural disaster he's brewing up - volcano, earthquake, that sort of thing. She somehow mucks it up so it doesn't happen.
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Stopping a volcano or earthquake... didn’t know that was in her abilities.
 
Who knows what is within her abilities? We've already expanded on her abilities, having her help expel the spiders before the Girdle goes up.

Who knows what abilities are required to stop a magical disaster? It's not worth going in to in any detail at all, but in the current Warhammer fantasy setting, a single skaven (rat-man) assassin stopped the God of Death's cataclysmic plan by accidentally dying in the wrong place (his corpse got physically in the way and mucked up part of the ritual and kept if from working). It's not Tolkien, but it's written with internal consistency/verisimilitude.
 
It's a good suggestion. One thing to think about is, what situation would/could she be in where Melian wouldn't be preventing the disaster instead?

Maybe rumors spreading among the Sindar to try to divide them from each other? We had a scene during Season 3, I can't recall the context, when Luthien feels that she isn't doing enough to help her people. And Melian tells her that her job isn't to fight but to find out what her people need and try to give them that, and they needed hope. What if Luthien is instrumental in quashing some destructive rumors among the Sindar, either relating to the Noldor or else to some internal thing, or designed to fill the Sindar with fear? Certainly, she could be doing "damage control" after the Sindar learn about the Kinslaying. I think she would be in favor of continued friendship with non-Feanorian Noldor.


Interacting with Galadriel is also an opportunity for character moments. There were suggestions that Galadriel is in a bad place mentally before she moves to Doriath. She becomes friends with Melian, probably also Luthien. What wisdom does each of them bring to her situation. Can Luthien help Galadriel see her situation in a new light, or learn something from it? After learning of the Kinslaying, but also earlier before they know just why she's feeling low. I'm not good at coming up with pearls of wisdom myself, but we could show Luthien's perception and... gentle, perhaps non-judgmental way she deals with people.
 
Faelivrin said:
I think Orcs are definitely driven, though not only by fear. They're also filled with hate and bloodlust by Morgoth.

Also... maybe the Balrogs are cowards, like Morgoth, despite being terribly dangerous and powerful. I don't know whether that would be at all consistent with how they've been depicted so far, though.

Also, I'll back off of saying Gothmog should not start the Dagor Aglareb, if it's important for him to do something significant and we can't work in any other action for him this season.


Honestly I don't have a problem, necessarily, with Petty-Dwarves attacking Elves for no reason and getting killed in reaction, since they behave that way in War of the Jewels. However, this wouldn't fit well into our timeline without changing it. I made a comparison of the canonical story (Sindar fighting the Petty-Dwarves) and the proposed story (Feanorians fighting the Petty-Dwarves) to show how where the logic holes come up, because of how the situations differ.

The biggest problem, to my mind, is how the Feanorians then relate to the Blue Mountains Dwarves. In the canon story, the Sindar mistake the Petty-Dwarves for vicious animals, but have no trouble telling the Blue Mts. Dwarves are people since they operate openly, so they don't attack them. However, if the Noldor mistake the Petty-Dwarves for Orcs instead, they'd realize the Blue Mts. Dwarves are the same kind of Orcs, and surely would attack them.

index.php


I apologize that this is tiny and hard to read.

Edit: If the logic holes of this story can be overcome in a satisfying way, without anyone acting out of character, then my objections would be overcome.
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I wouldn’t say the Balrogs are cowards, maybe they don’t take initiative.
 
On other notes: who do we have Fingolfin and Fingon talk to until the House of Hador arrives? There seems to be no other Elven-lords in the area, except for maybe the Sindar of the hills.
 
They have their sub-chieftains i suppose..
Fingolfin may have Aranwe, Turgon, Arminas, Gelmir, Turgon's Chiefs...

Or Fingon may have Findobar/Finbor, and Erirn

"Gimli" is still a character one could use, or some of Turgons chiefs in Gondolin might have been followers of fingon first..
 
Haerangil said:
They have their sub-chieftains i suppose..
Fingolfin may have Aranwe, Turgon, Arminas, Gelmir, Turgon's Chiefs...

Or Fingon may have Findobar/Finbor, and Erirn

"Gimli" is still a character one could use, or some of Turgons chiefs in Gondolin might have been followers of fingon first..
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Gimli?
 
Gimli the Blind, gnome/Noldo who was prisoner in Tol in Gaurhoth. Of course we would like to change his name... (Gimglir? Gimriol?) Just like with rog (i supposed Róka or Rhogrin),

He's one of the yet "unalligned" characters i had collected..
 
Haerangil said:
They have their sub-chieftains i suppose..
Fingolfin may have Aranwe, Turgon, Arminas, Gelmir, Turgon's Chiefs...

Or Fingon may have Findobar/Finbor, and Erirn

"Gimli" is still a character one could use, or some of Turgons chiefs in Gondolin might have been followers of fingon first..
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Well not for long since Turgon relocates to the Encircling Mountains.
 
I'd rather avoid using the names Gimli and Legolas for any First Age Elves.

Rog can be one of Fingolfin's and Fingon's people until the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. There were some other names suggested in that Unaligned Characters thread, but we'd need characters to go with those names.
 
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