Rog

[Ange1e4e5]

Just an idea, but what if Gwindor was captured *twice*?

He looks like an idiot and an incompetent.

 

[Haerangil]

Oh that would be horrible, the poor guy, campured once and escaped and then tje same again... i didn't even buy that in prison break.

 

[Faelivrin]

Poor Gwindor...

But I also don't know if it would make a ton of sense.... after the second time he'd be so broken he may be unable to escape again.
Also, somebody who has been captured once already isn't likely to be such a fool as to charge with almost no backup directly into Angband and then not retreat.
And if he got captured at the same time as his brother, would he escape without trying to help poor Gelmir?

 

[amysrevenge]

Surely we're more clever at writing than that. What if he bravely sacrifices himself to save others the first time he is taken, escapes stronger/more resolute than ever (as we are already planning for Ecthelion, no?) and then poor hapless Gwindor is taken a second time later on, and this time is broken in captivity.

The twist for readers, seeing him escape successfully at first. Fun.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Surely we're more clever at writing than that. What if he bravely sacrifices himself to save others the first time he is taken, escapes stronger/more resolute than ever (as we are already planning for Ecthelion, no?) and then poor hapless Gwindor is taken a second time later on, and this time is broken in captivity.

The twist for readers, seeing him escape successfully at first. Fun.

He still looks incompetent.

 

[Haakon]

Most of all, I think that it will make Morgoth and his crew look too incompetent. You don't let someone escape a second time.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Most of all, I think that it will make Morgoth and his crew look too incompetent. You don't let someone escape a second time.

That’s true too. In fact, they (particularly Gothmog) already look bad because they lose three battles over 400 years from the Dagor Agraleb to the Dagor Bragollach.

 

[Haerangil]

Morgoth also lets prisoners escape to smuggle his spies among them, be they phantoms or twisted elves...

 

[Faelivrin]

But Morgoth only lets them escape when he has completely broken them and put the Spell of Bottomless Dread on them. That never happened to Gwindor.

 

[Haerangil]

And certainly none of our heroes... sure!

 

[MithLuin]

Yeah, we do want to avoid the 'revolving door prison' effect where there are so many escapees that viewers start asking if the doors are even locked.

I don't think Gwindor should be captured twice - mostly because his brother being captive first (without him) is one of the issues at the start of the Unnumbered Tears.

The audience will know that Sauron (or Morgoth) is doing an intentional catch-and-release with the elves, so we're allowed multiple escapees. But...we do have to be judicious in how we use that.

We should probably only let them out in batches at particular times, so it's not like every episode there's a new escaped elf walking into an encampment somewhere.

I should also emphasize that *no* elf is going to be a Maeglin-level traitor. No one is willingly collaborating with Morgoth to intentionally bring about ill. It's...just...he messes with their heads.

Saruman is able to dupe Radagast into doing things that Radagast maybe wouldn't have done had he known the full picture. Saruman is *also* able to exert a strong control over the will of Theoden in Rohan (though nowhere near the possession-levels PJ's movies depicted). Neither of these people are Grima Wormtongue, actively working with Saruman so that the end goal will favor him.

So, we'll have some people who are not affected/fight even harder...people like Maedhros and Rog or Ecthelion. And we'll have some people who are at various stages of the dupe/pawn model by dint of being broken in captivity. Orodreth is top contender for that spot at the moment.

 

[Faelivrin]

I'd very much prefer that Orodreth only be weakened in strength of will and assertiveness, rather than become Theoden-like, or actually broken, or under the Spell of Bottomless Dread. What happens to those victims is more severe than a personality change:

[Morgoth] now bade the Orkor to take alive any of the Eldar that they could and bring them bound to Angband. For it was his intent to use their lore and skill under duress for his own ends; moreover he took pleasure in tormenting them, and would besides by pain wring from them at times tidings of the deeds and counsels of his enemies. Some indeed he so daunted by the terror of his eyes that they needed no chains more, but walked ever in fear of him, doing his will wherever they might be. These he would unbind and let return to work treason among their own kin.

And ever the Noldor feared most the treachery of those of their own kin, who had been thralls in Angband; for Morgoth used some of these for his evil purposes, and feigning to give them liberty sent them abroad, but their wills were chained to his, and they strayed only to come back to him again.

(emphasis mine)

In short they lose much of their free will, commit actual treason, and sometimes wander ?north? to be captured again ?repeatedly?, presumably so demons can torture them to find out what they've learned lately. The above simply doesn't describe Orodreth at all. He's kinda weak but not broken, he still has free will and resolve.

I don't think anyone proposed Orodreth to suffer/do any of those things: losing his free will, being recaptured, or committing treason. (IMO being unable to oppose the harranguing of Curufin, Celegorm, and Turin doesn't count as treason.) Hence I think we should be sure to distinguish what happens to him from the genuinely broken people and the Spell itself.

 

[amysrevenge]

I still don't see the problem with recapture (not specifically for Orodreth, but as a concept for anyone: Gwindor, or whoever) - it would be VERY EASY to craft a scenario where the strongest most capable Elf in the world would be captured - where it would look weak or inept in that scenario to NOT get captured. Where, through no failure of will or ineptitude, the only alternative to capture is to squeal and flee and hide behind your momma, abandoning your friends and family to capture and torment of their own. And it is no harder to craft such a scenario for someone who has previously been captured and escaped, than for someone who had not.

I can only see three ways for someone who has previously been captured to guarantee avoiding future capture: 1) never again be in contact with the enemy (or, functionally equivalent, immediately flee at the slightest sign of danger), 2) fight to the death under any circumstance, or 3) become so mighty that you are undefeatable - go take out the Balrogs and Morgoth yourself. Any post-capture reaction other than those 3, and it is trivial to write a reasonable recapture scenario that doesn't make the character look like a weak idiot - just maybe unlucky in a wrong place/wrong time sense.

Consider this hypothetical thought experiment- swap out Maedhros for Finrod as the dangling-by-the-wrist guy. Everything else is as close to the same as possible in the story as it moves forward - Finrod is rescued, firms up his resolve, and moves on with his left-handed life, goes on to found Nargothrond, etc. When Finrod and Beren are captured later by Sauron (but all the details in this encounter are word for word the same), would Finrod now appear weak or ineffective? I don't think he would. Even in the battle with Sauron, a probable change would be Finrod facing and defeating a song verse reminding him of his previous capture and disfiguring, with him still only being ultimately defeated by the Doom of the Noldor.

 

[NotACat]

I'm not sure it's the being captured twice that is sticking in anyone's craw, it's escaping twice with only mild side-effects…we are given graphic detail of how those captured by Morgoth are affected, and none would seem likely to go without notice from their nearest and dearest, never mind carry on regardless…

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I got an idea: have Rog, Ecthelion and Orodreth get captured, them turn out relatively fine (with the exception of a weakened Orodreth) but have other Elves who are under the spell of Bottomless Dread escape (or set loose) later on, where one realizes that Rog, Ecthelion and Orodreth were a fluke.

 

[Faelivrin]

I'm not sure it's the being captured twice that is sticking in anyone's craw, it's escaping twice with only mild side-effects…we are given graphic detail of how those captured by Morgoth are affected, and none would seem likely to go without notice from their nearest and dearest, never mind carry on regardless…

Yeah, we don't have any named characters who are described with any detail, who come back without major physical and psychological damage*. After doubling down on that, I have trouble imagining them being able to escape in truth. In Amysrevenge's hypothetical, Finrod is rescued the first time and presumably still dies the second time. Beren is captured twice, but he's a superlative and has Luthien's supernatural help twice, and the first time he's rescued rather than escaping on his own.

*Except Maeglin, if we don't consider him under the Spell.

I got an idea: have Rog, Ecthelion and Orodreth get captured, them turn out relatively fine (with the exception of a weakened Orodreth) but have other Elves who are under the spell of Bottomless Dread escape (or set loose) later on, where one realizes that Rog, Ecthelion and Orodreth were a fluke.

With Maedhros in place of Ecthelion, I like this. They escape before Morgoth had let out many (or any) beSpelled Elves as agents, so nobody expected them to have become spies. Then Morgoth's agents they start doing things -- I'm guessing sabotage and destructive rumors/social influence are easier than deliberately leaking information -- and people stop trusting any subsequent former thralls.

There is likely something noticeable in the demeanor of those who are under the Spell that makes you immediately go "Nope, that obviously didn't happen to Maedhros or Rog." whereas people might actually start to distrust Orodreth a little... not all, maybe not the majority, because people generally realize he's in a position of enough power that he'd have to be superbly clever to get away with treachery for decades, and like all of his house he's very likeable. (And anyone who knows his immediate superior, uncle Finrod, is the best telepath ever and would surely notice if his nephew was a mole.) But it could help explain why many people are so darn reluctant to actually listen to what Orodreth says.

Having Rog escape early isn't incompatible with him being from Fingon's followers, either.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Yeah, maybe there’s less spies sent to Nargothrond because Finrod could sniff them out with telepathy?...

But wait a minute. Finrod arrived with the rest of Fingolfin’s forces, why would he be captured and strung up by his wrist by Morgoth like Maedhros was?

And Finrod can be captured no later than FA 52, when he starts constructing Nargothrond.

 

[amysrevenge]

Yeah, maybe there’s less spies sent to Nargothrond because Finrod could sniff them out with telepathy?...

But wait a minute. Finrod arrived with the rest of Fingolfin’s forces, why would he be captured and strung up by his wrist by Morgoth like Maedhros was?

And Finrod can be captured no later than FA 52, when he starts constructing Nargothrond.

Hang on there - that was a hypothetical to argue a point, not a proposed actual event. Haha

 

[dietlbomb]

Who is Rog? I just listened to session 4.01 and Rog was mentioned, but I had never heard of this character before.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Rog was an Elf-lord of Gondolin who is exclusive to Lost Tales and one of the strongest Noldor, notable for a one-syllable name and those under his command killed numerous Balrogs (when Balrogs were a lot weaker in Tolkien’s writings). KIA during the Fall of Gondolin.