Orcs
- Thread starter amysrevenge
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Haerangil
Well-Known Member
No! I Like Azog and Bolg in the PJ Movies, but I think our Orcs should be different from that.
Tolkien says Swart, Swarthy, Grey, Black, Blackish, Sallow...
I take that to different types of common mannish skin-tones from southern European, Mediterranean, near-eastern, north african to black african to asian to sickly european. Definitely not Albino, green, Blue or fantasy skintones. Orcs SHOULD look realistic.
The Tower could be a Boldog/Ogre/Demon-Orc but no Common Orc.
I#d say common Orcs between 1,20 m to 1,60 m
Tolkien says Swart, Swarthy, Grey, Black, Blackish, Sallow...
I take that to different types of common mannish skin-tones from southern European, Mediterranean, near-eastern, north african to black african to asian to sickly european. Definitely not Albino, green, Blue or fantasy skintones. Orcs SHOULD look realistic.
The Tower could be a Boldog/Ogre/Demon-Orc but no Common Orc.
I#d say common Orcs between 1,20 m to 1,60 m
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
With arms most of the way down to the ground.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Hence why I said some Orcs big like that guy. He actually appeared in The Hobbit.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
We might have to have a fight about CGI later (I'm a fan of CGI, especially for things that would have been puppets in the 80s).
And I'm a fan of Jim Henson films, so that fight is on! 😉
Orcs should in general be smaller/shorter than elves. Saruman's Uruk-hai are going to be a separate discussion, but when Tolkien wanted to describe a particularly tall orc, he's 'nearly man-high', not towering over his opponents.
Basically, I'm saying that orcs are my height (5'3") rather than the 6' of most of our elves. Some could be nearly as small as a hobbit, but let's save that for later. Homogenous uniformity in the 1st age.
Orcs should in general be smaller/shorter than elves. Saruman's Uruk-hai are going to be a separate discussion, but when Tolkien wanted to describe a particularly tall orc, he's 'nearly man-high', not towering over his opponents.
Basically, I'm saying that orcs are my height (5'3") rather than the 6' of most of our elves. Some could be nearly as small as a hobbit, but let's save that for later. Homogenous uniformity in the 1st age.
And as for color - the orcs of Mordor are meant to have darker skin. And they're able to run in the sun. The orcs of Moria are pale and not so much. So, there's room for variation there. But I would like to have a common non-descript starting point (so perhaps greyish or yellowish as a sickly color would work).
I will post my own orc costume as an example of what I think orcs look like....if you start with me as a base 😉. Obviously, I'm not suggesting that this project has to go in the same direction or that this would be a 'Silm Film' orc.
Basically - lots of dead animals in the costume design 😉
Basically - lots of dead animals in the costume design 😉
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Haerangil
Well-Known Member
hmm... The Moria Orcs are described Swart and Dark, and the Mordor Orcs were nor really able to run in the sun, only the Isengard Orcs were...
I#m also a bit sceptical about too many pelts and animal hides... I#d like that for the later trbal Orcs... but I think the early Angband-Orcs should be more civilized... I like to see Angband as the demonic High-Culture of the time, and I think the Clothes should reflect that.
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Some of the pelts are to show what you would wear in a colder environment - this is meant to be a 3rd Age orc of the Grey Mountains, some nameless minion. So, yes, Angband is different - but it's northerly and cold (when you come above ground), so a fur cloak would be quite useful. At least, I found it that way in bitter February winds! (mine is fake fur, though).
But yes, we should at least use the descriptions in the book as a jumping off point, I suppose 😉.
Here's a smattering of references to orcs from Lord of the Rings - so while we would be trying to get there in the 3rd Age, we don't have to start there. I'm leaving out the Uruk-hai, because they are obviously recently mixed with Men and have more human-like attributes than other orcs. [Is hairy ears an orc trait? A Dunlending trait? An uruk-hai trait? Or just that one guy who carried Pippin? Who knows!]
Grishnákh - "a short crook-legged creature, very broad and with long arms that hung almost to the ground." The other uruks of Mordor are described in a similar fashion. Grishnákh has "long hairy arms," a "great head," "hard cold fingers," and "a great stifling hand."
The northerners (from Moria) are described as smaller, and 'mountain-maggots'. 'Long, loping strides' are characteristic of the orcs. "Their heads were down and their tongues lolling out" when they had to run in the sunlight.
The Isengarders calling the Mordor orcs 'apes' seems to be in reference to their stature - crooked legs and long arms. Constantly calling the Moria-orcs 'maggots' could just mean that they are small and squirmy 😛, but could also suggest a greyish or yellowish coloring to them. Certainly, the orcs do *not* have the same skin tone as the Men of Rohan, whom they refer to as 'Whiteskins'.
In Moria, Gandalf identifies some "large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor" among the other more typical Misty Mountain orcs. I would say that this suggests the orcs of Moria are (for the most part) smaller than Mordor orcs, and also of a less-dark skin tone. It is not clear to me whether the 'huge orc-chieftain' is, therefore, a Mordor orc or a Moria orc, but for our purposes here, it doesn't really matter, as he is an orc of some sort. He is described in some detail: "almost man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot.... His broad flat face was swart, his eyes were like coals, and his tongue was red;" He has "the speed of a striking snake".
Shagrat is "a large orc with long arms that, as he ran crouching, reached to the ground." He also has "protruding fangs." Sam does say, "I've had a bit of a search to find anything small enough for the likes of us," about the orc-gear in the Tower of Cirith Ungol, so I think that even a small orc is (typically) larger than a hobbit.
"Two orcs came into view. One was clad in ragged brown and was armed with a bow of horn; it was of a small breed, black-skinned, with wide and snuffling nostrils: evidently a tracker of some kind. The other was a big fighting-orc, like those of Shagrat's company."
But yes, we should at least use the descriptions in the book as a jumping off point, I suppose 😉.
Here's a smattering of references to orcs from Lord of the Rings - so while we would be trying to get there in the 3rd Age, we don't have to start there. I'm leaving out the Uruk-hai, because they are obviously recently mixed with Men and have more human-like attributes than other orcs. [Is hairy ears an orc trait? A Dunlending trait? An uruk-hai trait? Or just that one guy who carried Pippin? Who knows!]
Grishnákh - "a short crook-legged creature, very broad and with long arms that hung almost to the ground." The other uruks of Mordor are described in a similar fashion. Grishnákh has "long hairy arms," a "great head," "hard cold fingers," and "a great stifling hand."
The northerners (from Moria) are described as smaller, and 'mountain-maggots'. 'Long, loping strides' are characteristic of the orcs. "Their heads were down and their tongues lolling out" when they had to run in the sunlight.
The Isengarders calling the Mordor orcs 'apes' seems to be in reference to their stature - crooked legs and long arms. Constantly calling the Moria-orcs 'maggots' could just mean that they are small and squirmy 😛, but could also suggest a greyish or yellowish coloring to them. Certainly, the orcs do *not* have the same skin tone as the Men of Rohan, whom they refer to as 'Whiteskins'.
In Moria, Gandalf identifies some "large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor" among the other more typical Misty Mountain orcs. I would say that this suggests the orcs of Moria are (for the most part) smaller than Mordor orcs, and also of a less-dark skin tone. It is not clear to me whether the 'huge orc-chieftain' is, therefore, a Mordor orc or a Moria orc, but for our purposes here, it doesn't really matter, as he is an orc of some sort. He is described in some detail: "almost man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot.... His broad flat face was swart, his eyes were like coals, and his tongue was red;" He has "the speed of a striking snake".
Shagrat is "a large orc with long arms that, as he ran crouching, reached to the ground." He also has "protruding fangs." Sam does say, "I've had a bit of a search to find anything small enough for the likes of us," about the orc-gear in the Tower of Cirith Ungol, so I think that even a small orc is (typically) larger than a hobbit.
"Two orcs came into view. One was clad in ragged brown and was armed with a bow of horn; it was of a small breed, black-skinned, with wide and snuffling nostrils: evidently a tracker of some kind. The other was a big fighting-orc, like those of Shagrat's company."
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
You know, I had actually planned on doing this tonight if you didn't beat me to it. I had a feeling you would, though. 🙂
Glad to have saved you the trouble 😛 I am almost certain I have done this before, looking up all the descriptions of orcs in Lord of the Rings, and I recall it being a more extensive list, so if someone wants to add to this, go for it! I just wanted to have a starting point.
I am certainly not arguing against having some rather dark-skinned orcs, especially in the 3rd Age. They are described that way, and it fits the 'creature of darkness' idea to have some...darkness...in their character design. But. I would *much* rather see some variety, where we have some very dark skin, but also some other tones, and yes all the way to pale sickly greys and yellows. We have started off with some variety of appearance among the Valar. We have kept the elves mostly homogenous, because of their starting point being first generation at Cuiviénen - how would you have much variety so quickly? And so, the first fallen elves should also look like the rest of the elves. I like the stretched faces you've designed, as they are reminiscent of gaunt prisoners. And they can certainly be sickly looking. But to be blunt, they should be just as white as the elves of Beleriand and Valinor. They can change in appearance once Morgoth gets his hands on them - they can become more hideous, more beastly, whatever.
But if they suddenly all turn black-skinned because they're evil now, I'm....going to take some issue with that. That is rather clumsy story-telling, I think, when we are working in a visual medium where you have to make choices about what 'unlovely' looks like. There should be distortion in their form; they can have traits reminiscent of animals - the gait of a beast that does not usually walk upright. They can be hairier. Their skin tone can change during that transformation...but that shouldn't be the key difference, and I'd like to retain at least some of them having a 'sickly elf' skin tone moving forward into the future, even if we do (eventually) get some darker-skinned orc tribes.
I am certainly not arguing against having some rather dark-skinned orcs, especially in the 3rd Age. They are described that way, and it fits the 'creature of darkness' idea to have some...darkness...in their character design. But. I would *much* rather see some variety, where we have some very dark skin, but also some other tones, and yes all the way to pale sickly greys and yellows. We have started off with some variety of appearance among the Valar. We have kept the elves mostly homogenous, because of their starting point being first generation at Cuiviénen - how would you have much variety so quickly? And so, the first fallen elves should also look like the rest of the elves. I like the stretched faces you've designed, as they are reminiscent of gaunt prisoners. And they can certainly be sickly looking. But to be blunt, they should be just as white as the elves of Beleriand and Valinor. They can change in appearance once Morgoth gets his hands on them - they can become more hideous, more beastly, whatever.
But if they suddenly all turn black-skinned because they're evil now, I'm....going to take some issue with that. That is rather clumsy story-telling, I think, when we are working in a visual medium where you have to make choices about what 'unlovely' looks like. There should be distortion in their form; they can have traits reminiscent of animals - the gait of a beast that does not usually walk upright. They can be hairier. Their skin tone can change during that transformation...but that shouldn't be the key difference, and I'd like to retain at least some of them having a 'sickly elf' skin tone moving forward into the future, even if we do (eventually) get some darker-skinned orc tribes.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I agree. First age Orcs should be paler, not darker, than their forbearers. I would say that specialization occurs later on as our villains require more varied mission profiles.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
I haven't read the full Children of Hurin book in quite a while - anyone remember if there are any fuller orc descriptions in there?
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
My copy disappeared with most of my worldly possessions while I was overseas, sadly.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
I did not vote for more darker
Skinned Avari Elves for no reason...
Okay now my turn... 🙂
First Age Orcs:
“for the Orcs have ears of cats”
“she saw that they were creatures of a squat and unlovely stature that dwelt there, and most evil faces had they, and their voices and their laughter was as the clash of stone and metal. Armed they were with curved swords and bows of horn, and she was possessed with fear as she looked upon them, although
she knew not that they were Orcs”
“certain of the Noldoli were twisted to the evil of Melko and mingled among these Orcs, for all that race were bredby Melko of the subterranean heats and slime”
“Less fair was he than most of this goodly folk, swart and of none too kindlymood, so that he won small love, and whispers there were that he had Orc's blood in his veins”
--> So Maeglin#s Darker appearance here is likned to rumours about orc ancestry...
“sons of the Orcs were there with eyes of yellow and green like cats”
-->Seemingly Orc eyes are not only like cat#s eyes, but also look similar
“the Orcs should come; their ears than cats' :are keener whetted”
“they saw a band of Orcs go by with goblin-faces swart and foul.”
-->So they are also called “Swart”
“sometimes translated "Goblins", but they were of nearly human stature.'”
“in Angband's raiment foul and sad.
They smeared their hands and faces fair
with pigment dark; the matted hair
all lank and black from goblin head
they shore, and joined it thread by thread”
“their ears grew hideous, and agape
their mouths did start, and like a fang
each tooth became”
-->orcs seem to have bigger Ears then...
“the black armies of the Orcs”
-->of course this could relate to clothing and Armour
“the
Elves of Ossiriand were light-armed, and no match for the Orcs,
who were shod with iron and iron-shielded and bore great
spears with broad blades.”
-->Interesting in terms of Equipment
“Hurin 'seized the axe of an
Orc-captain and wielded it two-handed'”
“they were not in fact in any way like to
the gnomes of our learned theory, and still less to the gnomes of
popular fancy in which they have been confused with dwarves
and goblins, and other small creatures of the earth.”
“Trolls, in their beginning creatures of lumpish and
brutal nature, had nothing that could be called true language
of their own; but the evil Power had at various times made use
of them, teaching them what little they could learn, and even
crossing their breed with that of the larger Orcs.”
Later Ages:
“a huge orc-chief, almost
man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot”
-->True enough, he might be a Black Uruk of Dol Guldur instead of a Moria Orc.
“black figures of many orcs.”
-->This of course is about Moria Orcs, so they are called black too...
“Black orcs of Misty Mountains”
-->Again Moria Orcs
“caps
of the Orcs become 'leathern caps' ('iron helms”
“behind him came the black orcs: fifty or more”
-->these are Mordor-Orcs
“a small orc, bowlegged, leering at him out of a
gloating face”
“Swiftly they stripped the orc, peeling off his coat of
black scale-like mail, unbuckling his sword, and unslinging the
small round shield at his back. The black iron cap was too large
for Sam (for orcs have large heads for their size), but he slipped
on the mail. It hung a little loose and long. He cast the black
hooded cloak about him, took the whip and scimitar, and slung
the red shield.”
“The Morgul-lords having bred in
secret a fell race of black Orcs in Mordor”
-->So this seems not all Mordor-Orcs are Black?
“black orc-shapes' were coming through”
-->these are Gorbag and Shagrats Orcs
“Bingo saw-a squat sullen-faced hobbit (rather goblinish,
he thought to himself): he was looking over a hedge. He had black
eyes, a large mouth, and an unpleasant leer, and was smoking a
blackened pipe.”
-->Interesting enough (of course this passage never made it to the published Lotr)
“a southerner
with a sallow face, and a sly and almost goblinish look”
-->the Sallow look seems to point to half-orcish heritage
“four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart,
slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands.”
-->some people say these are Uruk-Hai, but it´s not entirely clear...
“a large
black Orc, probably Uglu k, standing facing Grishnakh, a
short crook-legged creature, very broad and with long arms
that hung almost to the ground. Round them were many
smaller goblins.”
-->this does indeed seem to imply that Ugluk and his Troop were darker than the Northerners but also darker than Grishnakh and his kind
“the Isengarders: a grim dark
band, four score at least of large, swart, slant-eyed Orcs”
“there was Grishnakh again, and at his back
a couple of score of others like him: long-armed crook-legged
Orcs.”
“some others that were horrible:
man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed.”
-->again the sallow-look seems to imply half-orcs
“they
marched up like a phantom company, grey distorted figures”
-->these are Mordor-Orcs... so are these rather Grey than Black or Swart? On the Other hand it`s their appearance in the spirit-world as Sam is wearing the ring at this point.
“He could
see them now, black and squat”
-->Mordor Orcs of Cirith Ungol and Minas Morgul
“Shagrat, a
large orc with long arms that,
as he ran crouching, reached
to the ground.”
-->But also Isengard Uruk-Hai are quoted to have long arms...
“One was
clad in ragged brown and was
armed with a bow of horn; it
was of a small breed, blackskinned,
with wide and
snuffling nostrils: evidently a
tracker of some kind. The
other was a big fighting-orc,
like those of Shagrat’s
company, bearing the token
of the Eye.”
-->here the small Orc is described as black while the Large one is not
Of course Pelts and Skins make sense in the cold northern climate of Angband. But Again Tolkien uses the term raiment, which usually means fancy clothes... so I guess the Orcs do not have to be dressed up all in rags but they might wear well made clothing. Only once Tolkien mentions Morgoth making his Hosts dress up in greys to adjust to the dusts and Sands of anfauglith... but this is meant in ways of camouflage.
What I also find sort of interesting is that Tolkien in HoME often used the Word Legion in the context of Orcs and Goblins. I kind of would like the Idea of Angband's Orcs being equipped similar to Roman Legions...
Skinned Avari Elves for no reason...
Okay now my turn... 🙂
First Age Orcs:
“for the Orcs have ears of cats”
“she saw that they were creatures of a squat and unlovely stature that dwelt there, and most evil faces had they, and their voices and their laughter was as the clash of stone and metal. Armed they were with curved swords and bows of horn, and she was possessed with fear as she looked upon them, although
she knew not that they were Orcs”
“certain of the Noldoli were twisted to the evil of Melko and mingled among these Orcs, for all that race were bredby Melko of the subterranean heats and slime”
“Less fair was he than most of this goodly folk, swart and of none too kindlymood, so that he won small love, and whispers there were that he had Orc's blood in his veins”
--> So Maeglin#s Darker appearance here is likned to rumours about orc ancestry...
“sons of the Orcs were there with eyes of yellow and green like cats”
-->Seemingly Orc eyes are not only like cat#s eyes, but also look similar
“the Orcs should come; their ears than cats' :are keener whetted”
“they saw a band of Orcs go by with goblin-faces swart and foul.”
-->So they are also called “Swart”
“sometimes translated "Goblins", but they were of nearly human stature.'”
“in Angband's raiment foul and sad.
They smeared their hands and faces fair
with pigment dark; the matted hair
all lank and black from goblin head
they shore, and joined it thread by thread”
“their ears grew hideous, and agape
their mouths did start, and like a fang
each tooth became”
-->orcs seem to have bigger Ears then...
“the black armies of the Orcs”
-->of course this could relate to clothing and Armour
“the
Elves of Ossiriand were light-armed, and no match for the Orcs,
who were shod with iron and iron-shielded and bore great
spears with broad blades.”
-->Interesting in terms of Equipment
“Hurin 'seized the axe of an
Orc-captain and wielded it two-handed'”
“they were not in fact in any way like to
the gnomes of our learned theory, and still less to the gnomes of
popular fancy in which they have been confused with dwarves
and goblins, and other small creatures of the earth.”
“Trolls, in their beginning creatures of lumpish and
brutal nature, had nothing that could be called true language
of their own; but the evil Power had at various times made use
of them, teaching them what little they could learn, and even
crossing their breed with that of the larger Orcs.”
Later Ages:
“a huge orc-chief, almost
man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot”
-->True enough, he might be a Black Uruk of Dol Guldur instead of a Moria Orc.
“black figures of many orcs.”
-->This of course is about Moria Orcs, so they are called black too...
“Black orcs of Misty Mountains”
-->Again Moria Orcs
“caps
of the Orcs become 'leathern caps' ('iron helms”
“behind him came the black orcs: fifty or more”
-->these are Mordor-Orcs
“a small orc, bowlegged, leering at him out of a
gloating face”
“Swiftly they stripped the orc, peeling off his coat of
black scale-like mail, unbuckling his sword, and unslinging the
small round shield at his back. The black iron cap was too large
for Sam (for orcs have large heads for their size), but he slipped
on the mail. It hung a little loose and long. He cast the black
hooded cloak about him, took the whip and scimitar, and slung
the red shield.”
“The Morgul-lords having bred in
secret a fell race of black Orcs in Mordor”
-->So this seems not all Mordor-Orcs are Black?
“black orc-shapes' were coming through”
-->these are Gorbag and Shagrats Orcs
“Bingo saw-a squat sullen-faced hobbit (rather goblinish,
he thought to himself): he was looking over a hedge. He had black
eyes, a large mouth, and an unpleasant leer, and was smoking a
blackened pipe.”
-->Interesting enough (of course this passage never made it to the published Lotr)
“a southerner
with a sallow face, and a sly and almost goblinish look”
-->the Sallow look seems to point to half-orcish heritage
“four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart,
slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands.”
-->some people say these are Uruk-Hai, but it´s not entirely clear...
“a large
black Orc, probably Uglu k, standing facing Grishnakh, a
short crook-legged creature, very broad and with long arms
that hung almost to the ground. Round them were many
smaller goblins.”
-->this does indeed seem to imply that Ugluk and his Troop were darker than the Northerners but also darker than Grishnakh and his kind
“the Isengarders: a grim dark
band, four score at least of large, swart, slant-eyed Orcs”
“there was Grishnakh again, and at his back
a couple of score of others like him: long-armed crook-legged
Orcs.”
“some others that were horrible:
man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed.”
-->again the sallow-look seems to imply half-orcs
“they
marched up like a phantom company, grey distorted figures”
-->these are Mordor-Orcs... so are these rather Grey than Black or Swart? On the Other hand it`s their appearance in the spirit-world as Sam is wearing the ring at this point.
“He could
see them now, black and squat”
-->Mordor Orcs of Cirith Ungol and Minas Morgul
“Shagrat, a
large orc with long arms that,
as he ran crouching, reached
to the ground.”
-->But also Isengard Uruk-Hai are quoted to have long arms...
“One was
clad in ragged brown and was
armed with a bow of horn; it
was of a small breed, blackskinned,
with wide and
snuffling nostrils: evidently a
tracker of some kind. The
other was a big fighting-orc,
like those of Shagrat’s
company, bearing the token
of the Eye.”
-->here the small Orc is described as black while the Large one is not
Of course Pelts and Skins make sense in the cold northern climate of Angband. But Again Tolkien uses the term raiment, which usually means fancy clothes... so I guess the Orcs do not have to be dressed up all in rags but they might wear well made clothing. Only once Tolkien mentions Morgoth making his Hosts dress up in greys to adjust to the dusts and Sands of anfauglith... but this is meant in ways of camouflage.
What I also find sort of interesting is that Tolkien in HoME often used the Word Legion in the context of Orcs and Goblins. I kind of would like the Idea of Angband's Orcs being equipped similar to Roman Legions...