Orcs

[MithLuin]

In that climax, we are seeing the actions of a lot of characters we already know from their previous dialogue. We already know all the relationships - Uncas being the son of Chincagook, the two sisters, Maugua's villainy, etc. I would not call any of the players here nameless background characters being given their moment to shine. But yes, our show will have to have action sequences, and scenes carried by the score rather than by dialogue.

Incidentally, that is another example of casting not matching the descriptions in the book. Clara, the elder sister, is meant to be the daughter of a Caribbean woman. She is supposed to have dark skin, though in the N. C. Wyeth paintings, only the dark hair is preserved. Clara is consistently described as darker than Alice, so N.C. Wyeth made her black-haired and Alice blond! (The girls are half-sisters; both of their mothers are dead).

Of course, the story is so completely changed for the film, that it's nearly impossible to discuss at all if one person has seen the film and the other has read the book!

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I meant it as an example of a scene with little dialogue and mostly action.

 

[Haakon]

A bit OT but we do have scenes without dialogue. The Balrogs' attack on the Lamps for example.

 

[Haerangil]

I have to admit I also like the look of the Master in the Strain... i don't say I want our Orcs to look like that, but some elements of it... yes.

I especially like the ugly big mouth

 

[Haerangil]

drawn some orcfaces again... tried to go more into a degenerate human look as i think my last sketches still were too D&D/Classic Fantasy Orc...
so this time less prominent fangs and less pointy ears, I think the sharp-pointed, filed-down teeth of the headlesss horseman in sleepy hollow should be the way to go... I also drew these orcs like people suffering from disease and inbreed, like orcs most likely would have. Prostetics should be able to handle this look easily.

I always LOVED this Shadowrun Illustration:

I usually don't like the Shadowrun Orcs but these Orc children are perfect. Of course our version should be less cute...

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Do we even have Orc kids? How do Orcs reproduce?

 

[MithLuin]

Yes, orcs reproduce in the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar.

...just don't think too much about that.

 

[Haerangil]

don't google for pics! You don't want that...

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Would still like at least one or two really tall Orcs, and this guy would be perfect.

He was this guy in The Hobbit.

 

[Haerangil]

yes i could ansolutely imagine him playing one of morgiths generals, boldog being the most likely choice..

 

[MithLuin]

I would not think that any of the orcs would be over 6' tall.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I had thought of having a few because Orcs are supposed to be tortured Elves and we could still have the height.

 

[MithLuin]

They started out that way...but they do change into a completely unrecognizable race. They are described as stooped over, arms hanging down low to the ground. They should not be tall. Some are taller than others (and they're not as small as hobbits), but....I don't think we need any VERY LARGE orcs.

Conan Stevens is 7' tall. So....why? Why would we want such a looming orc?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I think that a lot of people forget that we already have a lot of large antagonists. Between the balrogs, werewolves, dragons, and trolls, I don't think we'll have a shortage.

 

[Haerangil]

if we choose to make the boldogs fallen maiar in orc-like shape as jrrt suggested in some of his later writings i would absolutely suppose these beings to be larger than common orcs. 7 ' sounds absolutely reasonable for such a demon-orc/ogre like character.i would like that.

i would't want any common orc to be even 6' tall... 1,60 sounds reasonable, some probably even smaller.

but boldog, and if we want to use these characters, gorgol,lug,othrod,balcmeg& orcobal i would want to portrait as such maia-orcs... they should have an outstanding appearance and by this i also mean they should be big and intimidating.

 

[Faelivrin]

Yes, orcs reproduce in the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar.

...just don't think too much about that.

Hah, I figured out how to quote!

So, I like that you're going with both fallen elves and orc-maiar. I think that how orcs reproduce is... actually central to how they are so horribly messed up. In the Myths Transformed essays (in Morgoth's Ring) Tolkien expressed a lot of reservations about his decision to make orcs appear to be inherently evil, to inherit evil instead of being individually fallen. He did not hit upon the solution, but I think it is obvious: orcs are not born evil, they are individually corrupted... because they are raised by orcs, who have no love in their hearts, only hate. Who abuse their own children horribly. Or raised by demons in some dehumanizing institutional setting. What would happen if an infant was rescued at birth and raised with love by decent people is ambiguous in my mind.

I think they do have an inherent tendency to aggression, and are more short-lived, sickly and susceptible to moral corruption than even mortals. That comes from the spiritual corruption of what Morgoth and Sauron did to them and their ancestors and from worshipping Morgoth, from eating nothing but food tainted with goodness-knows-what spiritual filth... and probably from breeding with orc-shaped demons. If Melian can do it, so can demons, and I think they did.

Those orc-demons might be distinguished from the fallen-elves by larger stature and fancier armor, but also having slightly more bestial features, like somewhat feline ears. I say only slightly, because I agree that orcs in general, even the ones who are actually demons, should be almost entirely human and realistic in appearance. Part of the horror of the orcs is that they can clearly be seen, in the First Age, to be twisted and ruined elven figures. It's clear where they came from, what they used to be.

And I agree 100% that you should not go with green or blue skin, and definitely not good = light skinned, evil = dark skinned. Not with orcs, and not with the mortals who rebel against Morgoth and flee Hildorien. I feel inclined for the Folk of Haleth and the Folk of Bor to be noticeably "swarthy," and for mortals of many different "racial" appearances to rebel against Morgoth worship and flee in all directions from Hildorien. The white-looking folks who became the Edain were just the ones who happened to go northwest, not the only ones to return to Eru.


Now trolls -- those are not bred from Children of Illuvatar, they are .... something else. Some are puppets made of stone in mockery of ents, and animated by force of will, while the Olog-Hai (which were made later) are corrupted from some sort of living creature -- I imagine they came from either apes or ents. And as a result of these origins, the stone-trolls are green and scaly, and might have multiple heads, inappropriate numbers of arms, tails, horns, cat-shaped ears, etc. The Olog-Hai would appear as deformed, degraded mockeries of whatever they were bred from. Horrible thought -- maybe that's what Sauron did to the Entwives. 🙁

 

[Faelivrin]

I hope it isn't rude to double-post. I didn't think of this earlier.

I'm reading part of the Lay of Leithian, which has a description of Finrod, Beren, and company disguising themselves as orcs, which I think may be the most detailed description of what First Age orcs looked like.

These are lines 1998-2013, all written in 1928 or 1929, before the Lord of the Rings, but I don't think there is anything more detailed from later.

First of all they took off their clothes and dressed in stolen Orkish clothing and armor. They color their faces. They cut off orcs' hair and made it into wigs that they put on. Lastly, Finrod sang a song of power and either cast an illusion, or physically changed their shapes.

Haerangil quotes the description of the skin paint, orc hair, and orc ears here.

There's no indication that orc clothing doesn't fit, and it has to fit or nearly fit for them to wear it, so the orcs are probably elf-sized or almost elf-sized. If they're smaller, then Finrod's song of power has to physically alter their shapes instead of creating an illusion, the way Luthien turned Beren into a fake-werewolf and herself into a fake-giant bat. But they put the orc-gear on before Finrod changes them, so the orcs can't be much smaller.

 

[Haerangil]

I don't think they're technically smaller in terms of size ( at last not the warrior- orcs), but orcs have a different ... Well bearing or rather posture. They are often described as having long arms hanging down almost ro the floor, they are well shorter... Because they are kind of crooked or bent. They don't walk really upright but more with a kind of stooped walk, they might be like hunchbacks or similar to apes or prehistoric mannish races in that.

I had collected quite a large number of quotes theoughout all works and periods on page 2.

 

[Faelivrin]

I thought that in the Third Age they were genuinely smaller than Elves and Men, in addition to not necessarily standing up straight. Some at least had clothes that Sam and Frodo could get on, and then they were mistaken for orcs despite their size.

I had collected quite a large number of quotes theoughout all works and periods on page 3..

Yes you did... and now I find that post, since you pointed it out. Sorry, clearly you did most of that work already.

EDIT: I'll link to your post and delete the repetition, so it's easier to see the parts I quited that you didn't quote.

 

[Haerangil]

No problem! As for frodo and sam i just think they found clothes from one of the smaller orcbreeds... In lotr it seems clear that both sauron and saruman have developed specialized breeds of orc, from smaller trackers, scouts and workers to greater soldier- types to even larger uruk- hai and extraordinary types such as the great goblin who is called tremendous ( i 'd like to see him as a descendant of our boldog- orcs while the uruk- hai are maybe something like the orc equivalent to dunedain or noldor).