Session 3.08 - S3 Ep3: Meanwhile in Beleriand

Haakon said:
I'm a bit concerned about the story of the Lindi. It needs to be tied to Lenwë, and we haven't seen him for a season.
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The lindi are a disunited group of clans when they leave the great wandering. Den is able to gather a number of them and lead them over the mountains.

As lenwe simply vanishes in the story it is quite possible that the lindi themselves don't know his whereabouts. Actually denethor might ask denethor about his father... They knew each other and i suppose he was of the same generation as the other -we elves, possibly even a remote kinsman of elwes and nowe- cirdans... Thingol would ask about lenwe and drnethors face mught grow dark as he says " we don't know". Reference to gloin when the hobbits ask about balins whereabouts in imladris
 
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Haakon said:
has completed a new large ship. A visiting Sindar - let's say it's Beleg - is impressed and says he'll make sure to tell King Thingol about it. 'Yes, tell Elwë', Círdan
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One question: is river sirion navigable? I wonder if the falathrim sometimes go noating on the rivers near doriath to visit their kinsmen. Cirdan himself could visit thingol near tje western borders and thingol could come to the river- havens ( if there are some in west doriath) to welcome his friend... Daeron and luthien could be there too, or celeborn
 
One more question:
In the books, did mot eol have servants? Are such people mentioned? I guess if he does have some, they are dark, quiet, rarely or never speak, are smiths like their lord and hate thingol and the sindar... I mean: does eol have a tribe?
 
amysrevenge said:
Well. In times of peace among humans, we all start to get *super* pissy about really minor petty issues. Whither Elves?
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So you're saying the plot of episode 3 should focus on Melian being annoyed that Eol has moved into the forest where she and Thingol met, precluding any anniversary visits on their part, and Luthien should be upset that her favorite comb has broken, so Daeron promises to make her a new one?

:p

I'm comfortable with our cast of characters, but I have no idea what they're actually up to at this time. And yes, Eol eventually has servants, but he should be presented as a loner. So we wouldn't want to emphasize a friendly noisy household for him or anything like that.

As for Sirion, it's clearly not navigable past the Gates, but we could make a portion of the river navigable, sure.
 
Haerangil said:
One question: is river sirion navigable? I wonder if the falathrim sometimes go noating on the rivers near doriath to visit their kinsmen. Cirdan himself could visit thingol near tje western borders and thingol could come to the river- havens ( if there are some in west doriath) to welcome his friend... Daeron and luthien could be there too, or celeborn
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I don't know whether its lower reaches are navigable, but I don't think it is navigable as far north as Doriath. If memory serves, that is north of the great falls of Sirion and the place where the river runs underground. But that raises the question of where the Falathrim do go in their ships. If they regularly sail along the coast of Beleriand, perhaps they have seen something in one of their voyages that causes concern, and Cirdan sends messages to Doriath to seek counsel.

Haerangil said:
As lenwe simply vanishes in the story it is quite possible that the lindi themselves don't know his whereabouts. Actually denethor might ask denethor about his father... They knew each other and i suppose he was of the same generation as the other -we elves, possibly even a remote kinsman of elwes and nowe- cirdans... Thingol would ask about lenwe and drnethors face mught grow dark as he says " we don't know". Reference to gloin when the hobbits ask about balins whereabouts in imladris
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If Lenwe vanishes, his people would wander, confused, looking for him--parallel to Elwe's people, although without the happy ending. The audience might naturally suspect that he has been taken as other elves have been, and might be in Angband. (Lenwe - Boldog! :D) But we need not confirm that. Or perhaps he left them with a small party to scout out a new, safer home in the west, and never returned, so they have come after him hoping to find him. They should ask Thingol for news, and be diisappointed when he has none.
 
I want to make clear that I am extremely opposed to the notion that there has to be a conflict or tension in every scene. I think it's necessary to not have conflict in the scenes depicting the Sindar court this episode. They will be almost the last peaceful scenes this season. With a couple of exceptions, most of this season will deal with catastrophe and sorrow, and if not, the positive feelings will be mixed with aggression. So, five or at the most ten minutes of joy and peace will be good, no matter if some feel they are boring.
Besides, the episode begins with a storm and when we go to Thingol and Melian we will know that Morgoth has stolen the Silmarils and killed Finwë and is headed for Beleriand (or already there depending on time). So peaceful scenes in Doriath will themselves be in conflict with the story as it has unfolded so far. This will make the viewers feel that this is the calm before the storm, that this beautiful life will be destroyed.
 
Haakon said:
I want to make clear that I am extremely opposed to the notion that there has to be a conflict or tension in every scene. I think it's necessary to not have conflict in the scenes depicting the Sindar court this episode. They will be almost the last peaceful scenes this season. With a couple of exceptions, most of this season will deal with catastrophe and sorrow, and if not, the positive feelings will be mixed with aggression. So, five or at the most ten minutes of joy and peace will be good, no matter if some feel they are boring.
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Agreed. We want to show the contrast between what hte Noldor have inflicted on themselves, and also show that life in beleriand has been pretty good too for those who didn't go to Valinor. We are going to be bouncing back and forth between peace/happiness and catastrophe for the next few seasons, at least up until Beren/Luthien, after which things start to go steadily downhill, so showing the good times helps build that contrast. We just need to have something happen int he scene where we show how peaceful things are. Having elves stand around for 10 minutes looknig peaceful is not the best television imaginable. For Doriath, it might be as simple as showing the celebration of a festival commemorating something (the stars at Cuivienen? the reuniting of Elwe with his people?) that gives the scene some structure and everyone a reason to be there.
 
A festival is a good idea. Show the elves carousing and singing under the stars without the slightest care or worry that anything more dangerous than bears is lurking in the dark.

I figure that Lenwe might just live somewhere in the Vales of Anduin, while a smaller group of Nandor decide to head further west, in a slow and wandering way. I doubt they're particularly organized even after Denethor gathers whoever he can find to go look for Doriath. Their disorganization would be emphazied by their total lack of preparation for war -- unlike the Sindar, who are inexperienced but organized with solid leadership, and able to at least put up a good fight and regroup afterwards.
 
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Lenwe might live. If he does, probably somewhere in the south where he was last seen. But he also could be dead or imprisoned. I doubt the lindi themselves know...

If sirion is navigable to the gates, it could still be traveled by flat boats morth of the gates. I would like cirdan and thingol meeting not to discuss any trouble but as friends who havn't seen each other for a while. A teleri meeting, talking about the old times of the great wandering..
 
We could do a festival. That's always a possibility. I can think of a couple of reasons not to, though. One, we used the festival idea in the frame of season 2. Two, even if it's obvious that the elves do have festivals, the idea of a festival is some marking of time which to me feels a bit like something humans would do rather than people who aren't affected by time.

But hey, could they have a party celebrating Luthien's coming of age? Daeron could have composed a special song and she'd be dancing of course.
 
Haakon said:
But hey, could they have a party celebrating Luthien's coming of age? Daeron could have composed a special song and she'd be dancing of course.
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I'm sure they don't celebrate birthdays regardless of there being no sun (although the idea that she's turned eleventy-one is tempting and I'm kind of sad it's an impossibility) but it could be some celebration of her womanhood or entering the second age or something.
 
Maybe we'll take another dive into the works and look what kind of festivals elves did celebrate... I don't think birthday or coming of age were important public events... But i can't prove it ( yet)
 
Maybe Luthien wants to see the place where her parents met and so they go to Nan Elmoth (probably not for the first time). Their people come along. I guess they could have some kind of small festival in memory of Thingol reappearing, the return of their king.
We could tie this with Eöl somehow? In my episode outline I've suggested that Eöl meets Mîm - and I do think that is important, but a scene showing Eöl and Thingol could be really interesting. Eöl wants to live in Nan Elmoth - maybe he brings it up now, asks them to leave, and Thingol says this is a part of his kingdom. Later in the season, after having met the dwarves, Eöl creates Anglachel and buys Nan Elmoth with it.
 
Haakon said:
We could do a festival. That's always a possibility. I can think of a couple of reasons not to, though. One, we used the festival idea in the frame of season 2. Two, even if it's obvious that the elves do have festivals, the idea of a festival is some marking of time which to me feels a bit like something humans would do rather than people who aren't affected by time.
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Elves do seem to celebrate a lot of festivals, often at inopportune times (see: death of the Trees, fall of Gondolin). It strikes me that in times of peace they would look for excuses to have them, just to gather and share food and songs. But it's true that they probably don't commemorate the passage of time since certain events like births or battles that humans do. They would be more likely to natural events like the cycle of seasons. (Seasonal festivals are a little complicated by the lack of the sun, but there must still be some cycle of growing and flowering, as there was in Valinor even though there was no winter there). Maybe they celebrate the appearance of certain stars. We don't even have to be that explicit about the reason fro the gathering; it's just a narrative device (as it may have been for Tolkien).
 
Brian Dimmick said:
Elves do seem to celebrate a lot of festivals, often at inopportune times (see: death of the Trees, fall of Gondolin). It strikes me that in times of peace they would look for excuses to have them, just to gather and share food and songs. But it's true that they probably don't commemorate the passage of time since certain events like births or battles that humans do. They would be more likely to natural events like the cycle of seasons. (Seasonal festivals are a little complicated by the lack of the sun, but there must still be some cycle of growing and flowering, as there was in Valinor even though there was no winter there). Maybe they celebrate the appearance of certain stars. We don't even have to be that explicit about the reason fro the gathering; it's just a narrative device (as it may have been for Tolkien).
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I think that if we choose to depict a Nan Elmoth festival in memory of Thingol and Melian emerging from their trance (and their love and relationship), we don't have to make it depend on time passing in any specific way. The Sindar could just say, 'wouldn't it be nice with a Nan Elmoth festival? Let's do it!'. But of course something could inspire them. Some special flower, a nightingale or the appearance of a star, as you say.
 
Hmm... the Sindar don't seem to have been that much about festivals. At least not in the extreme way the high-elves were... there are hardly any words or names of Sindarian Festivities. The Sindar later invented the Mereth Aderthad... and they seem to have celebrated Midwinter/Yule, Birth of Flowers/Spring, Gates of Summer and Harvest in some way. We could imagine they also celebrated midsummer, though i didn#t find anything about it.

All i can say: Elves don#t seem to have been much about birthday parties. If they celebrated them, they were small , personal events of the family, just like namegivings.no big deal, not even if it were birthings of birthdays of Kings. But yet, they liked to drink, dance, play music and be merry... that's for sure!
So if we DO wish to invent a festivity, I guess with Midwinter/Yule, Birth of Flowers/Spring, Gates of Summer, Midsummer and Harvest we would be safe.
 
I mean we could depict a culture in Doriath which is more-or-less an unending party. Feasts and music and dancing every day. Like, it's not a festival and they're not celebrating anything - that's just how they live.

People obviously have to work...but it's possible that they still have plenty of free time and abundance to have a rather decadent party culture.

Then Morgoth comes back and the party's over.
 
MithLuin said:
I mean we could depict a culture in Doriath which is more-or-less an unending party. Feasts and music and dancing every day. Like, it's not a festival and they're not celebrating anything - that's just how they live.

People obviously have to work...but it's possible that they still have plenty of free time and abundance to have a rather decadent party culture.

Then Morgoth comes back and the party's over.
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I have the feeling it could be kind of that way. Not a non stop party as such but people having fun together, singing (tralala-lolly), dancing, eating and drinking, and now and then leaving to do other things. If that's everyday life, and they're also often on the move, a trip to a specific place such as Nan Elmoth can still be special enough to be considered a break from the usual habits. And if it's been a while since the last time they were there, it gives Eöl some time to settle there.
 
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