Session 3.08 - S3 Ep3: Meanwhile in Beleriand

Elves probably find an excuse to spend several hours singing together every day / night / unspecified sidereal time period.
 
Elves probably find an excuse to spend several hours singing together every day / night / unspecified sidereal time period.

I would agree that the elves of Doriath will lead a rather easy life at this point, with lots of time for eating and singing each day. What would distinguish some kind of festival is the number of people gathered in one place. I imagine relatively small groups of elves living at various places in Doriath, and probably moving regularly, rather than the kind of central "city" that Menegroth will become. A festival (based on whatever excuse) would gather significantly more people around Thingol and Melian for more lavish feasting and singing.

This doesn't make a festival necessary for our purposes--we don't need a really large number of people to tell the story we want to tell in this scene. But we could use the fact of the festival to tell our audience something about Sindar culture (reverence for nature/the stars, for example).
 
Oh hey. Regarding all that time feasting and loafing.

The required mundane stuff like farming and cleaning latrines. Magic, or volunteers, or wha?

Do we care? Just pretend it doesn't matter?
 
The required mundane stuff like farming and cleaning latrines. Magic, or volunteers, or wha?

However the elves get their food at this stage, I think their gifts/magic/whatever we might want to call it would not make food suddenly appear on the table, but would make the process of farming easier for them than for humans. Things just tend to grow where they want them, without as much work in planting or plowing. The necessary work could be done while still leaving time for a lot of ease. (Side question: did we show any kind of agriculture at Cuivienen? Have the Sindar learned about agriculture from anyone, or do they just naturally know about it?)

I also think they will just gather a lot of things from the forest. That was probably standard operating procedure during their wanderings.

I have never given any thought at all to elven latrines. If others want to, go right ahead.
 
I think that we have to assume that their structure is fairly hierarchical. This would not mean that Thingol and Melian does nothing or that they don't hunt or gather wild strawberries. On the contrary, they should do these things, but in such a way that those activities are feasts in themselves. The Royal Hunt. The King's Cherry Picking. The Queen's Trout Fishing. Accompanied by a bunch of tralala-lolly elves.
 
Last edited:
Just...maybe not Marie Antoinette milkmaids.

But, yes, lots of communal everyone-chips-in activities, but also a lot of itinerant forest dweller lifestyle (not so strong on the agriculture or the building of permanent structures).
 
Just...maybe not Marie Antoinette milkmaids.
Haha! No there's a line there somewhere... No I think every activity is for real. The king and queen do actually hunt and gather fruit and whatever. They just don't take care of the daily supply.
 
Actually... Thinking about it i would like a harvest festival. Showing the elves harvesting and prepairing the festivity also would give us opportunity to show how they live, that they actually DO work and grow food and where their wealth does come from. There shozld be something like fields and flocks in doriath... I don't know where i would place them on the map but the wide plain between the forest edge and nan elmoth could have been agricultural or pastoral in character..
 
I think we should remind ourselves of the issue of purpose that the elves struggled with last season during the debate about going to Valinor or not. These elves chose to go but were forced to stay. What has this done to their sense of purpose and feeling of where they belong? My guess is that most of them feel that they belong in Beleriand. It's not Valinor but it's kind of a paradise. They have been given a queen who is a Maia and a changed king. This season the Lindi will come here because they've heard rumours about Thingol and his kingdom and how wonderful it is.
Maybe this time is as good as it ever gets for the elves in Middle-earth, after Cuivienen. This could be close to their full elven potential. I mean they could live in Beleriand as guardians and tenders of nature to a great degree. I don't mean that they do not interfere with nature but they have a sense of caring for it that affects all activities. Hunting a stag is done with certain respect and sensitivity. The same goes for planting and harvesting.
So I'm thinking maybe agricultural fields will be established and shaped in special ways, that a human would perhaps not necessarily recognise. It would be less effectively organised but that would not matter to elves, who have all the time in the world.
 
I think that we have to assume that their structure is fairly hierarchical. This would not mean that Thingol and Melian does nothing or that they don't hunt or gather wild strawberries. On the contrary, they should do these things, but in such a way that those activities are feasts in themselves. The Royal Hunt. The King's Cherry Picking. The Queen's Trout Fishing. Accompanied by a bunch of tralala-lolly elves.

I think it can be hierarchical in the sense that Thingol/Melian give some direction on what needs to be done, but they are the kind of leaders who can gett hings accomplished without having to coerce anyone or set up some kind of caste system. Their "subjects" will work willingly (especially if the burden of the work isn't onerous) and gravitate towards the work they are most suited for (some to tending fields, others to gathering things int eh forest, etc.) It's a bit utopian, but that's part of the point. Plus, anyone who isn't happy with their place in the society is free to wander off and set up somewhere else (maybe we should hint that this has happened, just to keep things from sounding too perfect).

I see elven kingship at this stage as being somewhat different from a human king who constantly directs people to do stuff and pursues ambitions of building things and expanding territory. It's more symbolic and focused on the character of the king, a sign of respect rather than an admission that the king outranks me and has the right to tell me what to do. (This is one reason why choosing Finwe's successor is so fraught, given the different personalities of Fingolfin and Feanor). OF coursae military struggle with Morgoth will change this over time.

I think we should remind ourselves of the issue of purpose that the elves struggled with last season during the debate about going to Valinor or not. These elves chose to go but were forced to stay. What has this done to their sense of purpose and feeling of where they belong? My guess is that most of them feel that they belong in Beleriand. It's not Valinor but it's kind of a paradise. They have been given a queen who is a Maia and a changed king. This season the Lindi will come here because they've heard rumours about Thingol and his kingdom and how wonderful it is.

These are people who decided to go to Valinor mainly because Elwe told them how awesome it was; they obviously know nothing about ti themselves. They made their choice in order to follow him, and ultimately decided it was more important to stay and look for him than to continue the journey. I imagine they don't think about Valinor much at all now or regret their decision, except to wonder what may have happened to friends who left them behind. They love Beleriand, and feel they are fulfilling their purpose here.
 
Well, they do call themselves the Eglath (Forsaken) so there is clearly a sense that the boat-island left without them, when they would rather have been able to embark after finding Elwe. This feeling is stronger for the Falathrim, but all the Sindar call themselves Eglath.

That doesn't mean they feel exiled from their rightful home, in contrast to many Noldor. They seem to have enjoyed Beleriand a great deal, especially before the orcs and monsters showed up.

I like the comments about farming and gathering being much easier for Elves than for Mortals, and carried out without the need for coercion or a separate peasant/serf class. But I think it's important to avoid focusing on harvest festivals or farming activities in a way that would encourage the audience to ask how this works without a Sun or seasons. For example, if there's a festival don't say that it's a harvest-season festival, or an anniversary of anything.
 
I think we have one scene with the Falathrim and one situation with the court of Thingol. That's about it. Those are the scenes that have room for specific focus on the everyday life of the Eglath. After that, the times of peace are more or less over, at least this season. So we don't have to do a full tour of the society and all its functions. We just have to show something that gives us a feeling that 'this is how they live'.
I suggest that the Falathrim (and Círdan in particular) have just constructed a new ship. Maybe a tower is being built or finished as well. They seem to enjoy collective work.
For the situation at the Sindar court, I suggest we show a feast on the move, and I think of the same thing as MithLuin, the moving party in Mirkwood in the Hobbit. So I do think that the primary reason for this party should be hunting - and I think it should be in or on its way to Nan Elmoth, in memory of the return of Elwë or of the love of their king and queen. A freshly killed stag is being prepared in a ceremonious manner, and elves appear bringing gathered fruit in great baskets. It should mostly imply hunting and gathering, but the feast should probably center around hunting, since that is easier to do without thinking about seasons and how that works when there are none. I guess we have a fruit problem... But couldn't we just assume there is some kind of fruit that they can eat, which grows under the stars? :) They can eat mushrooms. Focus will not be on what they drink (but I guess we should discuss what is in their cups), it will be on the people and what they are doing.
 
The issue with the sun is a serious one, but on the other hand: tolkien does explicitly mention the lembas cerials which the valar gave to the elves to supply themselves on the great wandering, he does describe their glade fields and forest gardens, so i think we should have them, and obiously lembas cerials worked without too much light - on he great wandering they only had stars .

About sindar nobility: it's not a hereditary monarchy yet. It's a meritocracy. Thingol is king because he is a great guy, he was in valinor, was changed by the light, married a maia, is extremely strong, tall, big, wise, skilled , charismatic... That's why they made him king. Lesser chiefs like cirdan or annael... Lesser in importance but similar background. They got the right to rule because their people chose them.. And they also could take their lordship away again if they wanted to i guess.
 
Last edited:
In our story, it should seem fairly default that leadership on the Journey = a position of authority in the court of Doriath. But we are now introducing some new characters who were not there on the Journey (namely Lúthien and Daeron, but also Saeros if we're using him this season). And Eol of course is Avari.

If Lúthien is shown to have any sort of prominence at court, we are strongly implying a hereditary component. Daeron's place is clearly based on his artistic skill.

Obviously, *any* plant life at all surviving from the destruction of the Lamps until the rising of the Sun is not remotely realistic. And yet we clearly have forests, etc. Yavanna's magic sustains them, moving right along.... So yes, they can have crops without sunlight, but we probably don't want to draw *too* much attention to that, as it will look absurd.

You can have all the flowers and fruit and crops you want in Season 4.
 
Obviously, *any* plant life at all surviving from the destruction of the Lamps until the rising of the Sun is not remotely realistic. And yet we clearly have forests, etc. Yavanna's magic sustains them, moving right along.... So yes, they can have crops without sunlight, but we probably don't want to draw *too* much attention to that, as it will look absurd.

It does say that Yavanna set times for the flowering of plants for everything that grew in Valinor, even though Valinor has no winter as does the rest of Arda. Yavanna has traveled in Middle-Earth in the past and still presumably has some care for it. I would ascribe some of it to Yavanna's magic, and perhaps some to the elves themselves. So we can have a green, productive forest, and maybe not say anything about why it is so (the elves wouldn't have any reason to think about it, not having seen the sun). But the years after the rising of the sun are a time of flowering and growth in Arda, and in order to show that we don't want to have things as too verdant during this season. Also, if the forests grow too think they blot out the light of the stars, which would not be to the elves' liking.
 
The absence of sun works both ways for us: it creates problems about plants growing - but at the same time, all scenes will be in the dark so we don't have to be too specific about things.
 
A minor question about another thing. Brian mentioned Yavanna and that made me remember that the PubSil text says Oromë visited Middle-earth at this time. Remember this is now before the death of the Trees and all of that. My question is, do we show Oromë? I'll give you my view: no we don't. There are several reasons; even if we're making it clear that we've stepped back in time a bit, showing a Vala here at this point of the story would probably be confusing. (Ok there could be one reason to include him now and that would be to have him explain to Melian what's happening in Valinor and thus put a time marker here.) Also, a powerful Vala mingling with the Sindar in this episode will force us to include a scene to inform viewers that Oromë isn't coming here anymore.
So I suggest that if we want to acknowledge this at all, we could just have someone say 'we thank Oromë for this stag' or something like that.
 
Back
Top